5 ms·

>if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. The target at university always was a Master's degree. What? This is definitely not true in G

>if you have only a bachelor, people assume something went wrong. The target at university always was a Master's degree. What? This is definitely not true in Germany, at least not anymore. Unless you want to go into research or teaching, it's commonplace for graduates to start working right away. I think a much bigger problem that contributes to the devaluation of university degrees is the fact that students that don't really need a degree still get pushed to attend university - and that's definitely because of current recruiting practices where you really have no chance without at least a Bachelor's. I've met so many people in university who only really wanted to code and got no use out of learning things like automata theory, complexity, higher mathematics. Not saying it isn't important to learn these things, but you gotta differentiate between coders and computer scientists. And if coder positions require a computer science degree, well... Of course you're going to end up devaluing those degrees. Edit: Adding to this, I attended university for 4 years before switching to a more practice-oriented college. In those 4 years I had one programming lecture (which only introduced three different language paradigms and didn't go into depth) and a system programming lab (admittedly, this was really cool). Everything else was mostly theoretical computer science and mathematics. Now, I chose this university because people told me of its good reputation and I felt like I had to attend a prestigeous school to get a good job, but it didn't really teach me any practical skills at all, so even if I had graduated I would've had a hard time landing that "good job" due to complete lack of experience.

pjmlp 9y ago
Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries. I always have to explain that a Licentiate[0] is more akin to MS than Bachelor, which is a bummer on employment forms that don't expose it as option. After Bologna, Portuguese universities started giving the option for former Licentiates to request their MS title, given the split into 3 + 2. Which according to my knowledge also happens in other European countries where CS degrees used to be 5 years duration, before Bologna happened. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree)
- jcbrand 9y ago
  > Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries. No, actually it's not. Germans are under this impression because it's considered equivalent inside Germany.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    That is what I have been told from German friends, hence my assertion. Looking at the contents of 3 years bachelor + 2 years MS, versus the contents of old Licentiate 5 years duration in Portugal, they are clearly equivalent in content. Hence why after Bologna many universities basically renamed their Licentiate degree into something called Integrated MS, which means the students get a BS + MS paper at the end of those 5 years. Also the reason why former Licentiates are allowed to basically acquire their MS title, by paying bureaucratic fees and in some cases presenting some kind of career report as thesis.
  - rocqua 9y ago
    Here in the Netherlands, we switched to 3 + 2 years of BSc + MSc from a 5 year degree a while back. The actual program didn't change, just the diplomas you get in the end. Based on this, I'm comfortable saying that an MSc given these days is essentially the old 5 year degree.
    - madengr 9y ago
      How can you cover a BS in 3 years? Most engineering graduates take 5 years for a BS. I only did it in 4 by 18-21 credits/semester and 1 summer.
      - barry-cotter 9y ago
        Outside the US and countries that ape its university system there are no general education requirements. You study your degree subject and nothing else. The well rounded citizen stuff is presumed covered in secondary school.
orbifold 9y ago
If what you are saying is true (bachelors being valued the same) then this is kind of sad. I still believe that the old diploma degrees were one of the competitive advantages that our industry had. And from personal observation I can tell you that all the physics students I knew continued with a masters degree if they could.
- besasam 9y ago
  Hadn't really considered the natural sciences there, you're right! I was talking mainly from a tech/engineering perspective and at least in my generation (filthy millenials) and among my peers in uni I've observed the opposite.
helmsdeep 9y ago
I am from America and just started my Masters in Germany. From my experience so far the vast majority of my fellow students are directly from their bachelors. After talking to my German friends, classmate they told me the majority of graduates needs a Masters to get a decent paying job. For generic jobs/degrees such as business administration it seems to be more commonplace to go directly into the job market after your bachelors, however for any specialized field a Masters is almost required. I have also spent the last few months job hunting in Germany and almost all jobs require a Masters or currently studying for a Masters.

pjmlp 9y ago

Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries. I always have to explain that a Licentiate[0] is more akin to MS than Bachelor, which is a bummer on employment forms that don't expose it as option. After Bologna, Portuguese universities started giving the option for former Licentiates to request their MS title, given the split into 3 + 2. Which according to my knowledge also happens in other European countries where CS degrees used to be 5 years duration, before Bologna happened. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate_(degree)

jcbrand 9y ago
> Don't forget that a Diplom in Germany is similar to Bachelor + MS in other countries. No, actually it's not. Germans are under this impression because it's considered equivalent inside Germany.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  That is what I have been told from German friends, hence my assertion. Looking at the contents of 3 years bachelor + 2 years MS, versus the contents of old Licentiate 5 years duration in Portugal, they are clearly equivalent in content. Hence why after Bologna many universities basically renamed their Licentiate degree into something called Integrated MS, which means the students get a BS + MS paper at the end of those 5 years. Also the reason why former Licentiates are allowed to basically acquire their MS title, by paying bureaucratic fees and in some cases presenting some kind of career report as thesis.
- rocqua 9y ago
  Here in the Netherlands, we switched to 3 + 2 years of BSc + MSc from a 5 year degree a while back. The actual program didn't change, just the diplomas you get in the end. Based on this, I'm comfortable saying that an MSc given these days is essentially the old 5 year degree.
  - madengr 9y ago
    How can you cover a BS in 3 years? Most engineering graduates take 5 years for a BS. I only did it in 4 by 18-21 credits/semester and 1 summer.
    - barry-cotter 9y ago
      Outside the US and countries that ape its university system there are no general education requirements. You study your degree subject and nothing else. The well rounded citizen stuff is presumed covered in secondary school.

orbifold 9y ago

If what you are saying is true (bachelors being valued the same) then this is kind of sad. I still believe that the old diploma degrees were one of the competitive advantages that our industry had. And from personal observation I can tell you that all the physics students I knew continued with a masters degree if they could.

besasam 9y ago
Hadn't really considered the natural sciences there, you're right! I was talking mainly from a tech/engineering perspective and at least in my generation (filthy millenials) and among my peers in uni I've observed the opposite.

helmsdeep 9y ago

I am from America and just started my Masters in Germany. From my experience so far the vast majority of my fellow students are directly from their bachelors. After talking to my German friends, classmate they told me the majority of graduates needs a Masters to get a decent paying job. For generic jobs/degrees such as business administration it seems to be more commonplace to go directly into the job market after your bachelors, however for any specialized field a Masters is almost required. I have also spent the last few months job hunting in Germany and almost all jobs require a Masters or currently studying for a Masters.