5 ms·

The "scorched earth" approach only gets support when the nature and scope of the issues are distorted. What are the real issues in play? One is prostitution, a

The "scorched earth" approach only gets support when the nature and scope of the issues are distorted. What are the real issues in play? One is prostitution, a form of sex work which is illegal in most of the United States. The American public have varying feelings about its legal status, how enforcement should be carried out, etc. Public opinion doesn't support measures which endanger sex workers (which FOSTA does), because they're already an at-risk group. A separate issue is human trafficking, which is moving people across borders for the purpose of slavery/forced labor, including sex slavery. Public opinion is rightly massively against slavery in any form. What I would like to know is, how much slavery was taking place through the Craigslist personals section? How much of it goes on in America? Can we get some real data injected into this discussion about the nature and the extent of actual forced sex labor? Scorched earth tactics might be appropriate if America has developed a serious slavery problem (again), but they need to be justified with facts. I've run across people who want to take a scorched earth approach to eradicating prostitution (which will not work any more than the war on drugs did). They refer to all prostitution as trafficking in order to conflate the two issues, mislead the public and build support for their radical policies. There is also a class of people who have used FOSTA as an opportunity to expand government power. Neither of these agendas reflect public opinion.

dangerlibrary 9y ago
> How much of it goes on in America? Can we get some real data injected into this discussion about the nature and the extent of actual forced sex labor? Scorched earth tactics might be appropriate if America has developed a serious slavery problem (again), but they need to be justified with facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_the_United_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Unite...
- safety1st 9y ago
  Thanks for the links! These Wikipedia articles demonstrate my point that the facts and data are very weak in the trafficking discussion, and that data is often misrepresented to exaggerate the size of the problem. - The sex trafficking article states that in 2001 the State Department estimated 50k-100k were trafficked into the US -- this estimate was for both genders but the article erroneously states it is women only. - Either way, by 2004 the State Department reduced its estimate to 14,500-17,500 trafficked into the US annually for all genders and purposes. - According to the Washington Post, between 2000-2007 the government had identified 1,362 total victims of human trafficking brought into the United States. The percentage of these related to sex is not mentioned. - The human trafficking article states that the Global Slavery Index estimated 57,700 people were trafficked into the US in 2016. This statement is also erroneous. The GSI's estimate was for the number of people in some form of "modern slavery," which by their definition includes certain kinds of prison labor among other things, and is unrelated to whether they were trafficked. - The article also doesn't mention that the GSI arrived at 57,700 by designating a tier of the least enslaved countries studied and estimating the number of modern slaves at 0.018% of the population. The same formula is used for Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, etc. I'm not trying to detract from the importance of the issue of modern slavery but mentioning the 57k out of context seems a bit misleading, the US is literally among the best in the world in this area and the number is so rough that it could be off by tens of thousands. And again, it has nothing to do with trafficking, let alone sex trafficking!) Both the ACLU and EFF oppose FOSTA on the grounds that it violates both human and civil rights. Why aren't we doing better studies and getting better data about the problem it purports to solve?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - e40 9y ago
    Why aren't we doing better studies and getting better data about the problem it purports to solve? I'll probably get downvotes for this, but the Republican leadership is uninterested in facts. They are only interested in their agenda, and if facts get in the way, they will ignore them. It got a lot worse when Newt Gingrich took the reigns in Congress in the 90's. Since Obama was elected, it's gone into hyperdrive. They fucking hated that man.
    - Chris_Jay 9y ago
      Your comment brings to mind this article: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-blathering-superego-at-the-end-of-history/# https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-blathering-superego-...! I recommend giving it a read if you'd like your attitude challenged.
    - some_random 9y ago
      Everyone is only interested in their agenda in politics, calling for additional research just happens to sometimes further a side's agenda. As of right now, the Democrats are the one's who want additional research in most situations, but that doesn't mean they want more research universally, and when studies have come back negatively (as they sometimes do), they are disregarded. That said, there does seem to be an overall lack of trust in the scientific method among the political right, the reasons behind which being a bit more complicated than political efficacy.
Illniyar 9y ago
Actually prostitution is legal in Nevada (but not in the big cities). So even that isn't so clear cut.
- safety1st 9y ago
  Great point, I edited my comment to reflect this.
alexbeloi 9y ago
Estimated 57,700 slaves in the United States according to Global Slavery Index [0]. Here is a related WP article[1]. [0] https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/ https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/ [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/?utm_term=.36fac352ec2e https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17...
- Retric 9y ago
  That number is pretending to be accurate the error bars are rediculus to have 3 digits.
  - cheschire 9y ago
    Yeah it seems too odd that the population percentage is 0.018% in so many countries.
    - some_random 9y ago
      From safety1st's excellent comment: "- The article also doesn't mention that the GSI arrived at 57,700 by designating a tier of the least enslaved countries studied and estimating the number of modern slaves at 0.018% of the population. The same formula is used for Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, etc. I'm not trying to detract from the importance of the issue of modern slavery but mentioning the 57k out of context seems a bit misleading, the US is literally among the best in the world in this area and the number is so rough that it could be off by tens of thousands. And again, it has nothing to do with trafficking, let alone sex trafficking!)"
DanBC 9y ago
> which is moving people across borders That's only one definition. Other countries have broader definitions.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fokov 9y ago
> Public opinion is rightly massively against slavery in any form. Slavery is still legal in the USA according to the 13th Amendment.
- lightedman 9y ago
  Yup, to quote: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
dragonwriter 9y ago
> A separate issue is human trafficking, which is moving people across borders for the purpose of slavery/forced labor, including sex slavery. Public opinion is rightly massively against slavery in any form. The thing is, while some people see it as a separate issue, there is a very common opinion (deliberately fostered by the anti-prostitution lobby) that prostitution is inherently and inalterably human trafficking, and invocation of the term "human trafficking" is now very commonly used as a cover for policies that are directed generally against prostitution, and not at either the place where human trafficking overlaps with prostitution and not at human trafficking unconnected to prostitution.

dangerlibrary 9y ago

> How much of it goes on in America? Can we get some real data injected into this discussion about the nature and the extent of actual forced sex labor? Scorched earth tactics might be appropriate if America has developed a serious slavery problem (again), but they need to be justified with facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_trafficking_in_the_United_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Unite...

safety1st 9y ago
Thanks for the links! These Wikipedia articles demonstrate my point that the facts and data are very weak in the trafficking discussion, and that data is often misrepresented to exaggerate the size of the problem. - The sex trafficking article states that in 2001 the State Department estimated 50k-100k were trafficked into the US -- this estimate was for both genders but the article erroneously states it is women only. - Either way, by 2004 the State Department reduced its estimate to 14,500-17,500 trafficked into the US annually for all genders and purposes. - According to the Washington Post, between 2000-2007 the government had identified 1,362 total victims of human trafficking brought into the United States. The percentage of these related to sex is not mentioned. - The human trafficking article states that the Global Slavery Index estimated 57,700 people were trafficked into the US in 2016. This statement is also erroneous. The GSI's estimate was for the number of people in some form of "modern slavery," which by their definition includes certain kinds of prison labor among other things, and is unrelated to whether they were trafficked. - The article also doesn't mention that the GSI arrived at 57,700 by designating a tier of the least enslaved countries studied and estimating the number of modern slaves at 0.018% of the population. The same formula is used for Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, etc. I'm not trying to detract from the importance of the issue of modern slavery but mentioning the 57k out of context seems a bit misleading, the US is literally among the best in the world in this area and the number is so rough that it could be off by tens of thousands. And again, it has nothing to do with trafficking, let alone sex trafficking!) Both the ACLU and EFF oppose FOSTA on the grounds that it violates both human and civil rights. Why aren't we doing better studies and getting better data about the problem it purports to solve?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- e40 9y ago
  Why aren't we doing better studies and getting better data about the problem it purports to solve? I'll probably get downvotes for this, but the Republican leadership is uninterested in facts. They are only interested in their agenda, and if facts get in the way, they will ignore them. It got a lot worse when Newt Gingrich took the reigns in Congress in the 90's. Since Obama was elected, it's gone into hyperdrive. They fucking hated that man.
  - Chris_Jay 9y ago
    Your comment brings to mind this article: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-blathering-superego-at-the-end-of-history/# https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-blathering-superego-...! I recommend giving it a read if you'd like your attitude challenged.
  - some_random 9y ago
    Everyone is only interested in their agenda in politics, calling for additional research just happens to sometimes further a side's agenda. As of right now, the Democrats are the one's who want additional research in most situations, but that doesn't mean they want more research universally, and when studies have come back negatively (as they sometimes do), they are disregarded. That said, there does seem to be an overall lack of trust in the scientific method among the political right, the reasons behind which being a bit more complicated than political efficacy.

Illniyar 9y ago

Actually prostitution is legal in Nevada (but not in the big cities). So even that isn't so clear cut.

safety1st 9y ago
Great point, I edited my comment to reflect this.

alexbeloi 9y ago

Estimated 57,700 slaves in the United States according to Global Slavery Index [0]. Here is a related WP article[1]. [0] https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/ https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/index/ [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/?utm_term=.36fac352ec2e https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17...

Retric 9y ago
That number is pretending to be accurate the error bars are rediculus to have 3 digits.
- cheschire 9y ago
  Yeah it seems too odd that the population percentage is 0.018% in so many countries.
  - some_random 9y ago
    From safety1st's excellent comment: "- The article also doesn't mention that the GSI arrived at 57,700 by designating a tier of the least enslaved countries studied and estimating the number of modern slaves at 0.018% of the population. The same formula is used for Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, etc. I'm not trying to detract from the importance of the issue of modern slavery but mentioning the 57k out of context seems a bit misleading, the US is literally among the best in the world in this area and the number is so rough that it could be off by tens of thousands. And again, it has nothing to do with trafficking, let alone sex trafficking!)"

DanBC 9y ago

> which is moving people across borders That's only one definition. Other countries have broader definitions.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

fokov 9y ago

> Public opinion is rightly massively against slavery in any form. Slavery is still legal in the USA according to the 13th Amendment.

lightedman 9y ago
Yup, to quote: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

dragonwriter 9y ago

> A separate issue is human trafficking, which is moving people across borders for the purpose of slavery/forced labor, including sex slavery. Public opinion is rightly massively against slavery in any form. The thing is, while some people see it as a separate issue, there is a very common opinion (deliberately fostered by the anti-prostitution lobby) that prostitution is inherently and inalterably human trafficking, and invocation of the term "human trafficking" is now very commonly used as a cover for policies that are directed generally against prostitution, and not at either the place where human trafficking overlaps with prostitution and not at human trafficking unconnected to prostitution.