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I'm someone who works a lot of overtime, and yet no manager has ever asked me to work overtime. The reason for putting these rules in place is because for some

I'm someone who works a lot of overtime, and yet no manager has ever asked me to work overtime. The reason for putting these rules in place is because for some people (myself included) working overtime is something that they do habitually -- even when they shouldn't. Now that's not to say that my managers are not complicit in that. Working as a programmer, I find there is not much time pressure during the day (unless you break your server), but you have this long term stress where you are thinking, "I need to get X,Y, and Z done by <some date>". Often those deadlines are even self imposed. In fact, it is a normal underhanded trick to get programmers to estimate and commit to dates knowing that they are overwhelmingly optimistic. But the fact remains that in general we walk willingly into those long hours. I've also worked at a high school in Japan and while the stress is different, the results are the same. I used to hate national holidays because I knew that my workload wouldn't change. It just meant that I had one day less to get my work done, which is basically a whole lot more stress during the week in exchange for some random, government imposed "day off". I take my "day off" and my students get a crap class later that week (or if I'm really organised, two weeks later). I feel bad because I want every single one of my classes to rock. But to get to the point, if someone said that I had to turn off my computer at some government imposed time of the day, you're damn right I'd want an exception -- because otherwise there will be weeks where I won't get my work done. I will feel bad because I want to get my work done and I hate the idea of screwing over the customer because, "Well, not my fault! I have to go home". Of course, you are perfectly correct to say that there is something very broken in that equation. You are wrong to assume that it's the evil manager to is squashing everybody under their thumb. I've had some right asses as managers before, but the vast majority have been wonderful, caring, people who have exactly the same illness I do. That's why you mandate going home time, despite how much someone complains.

taurath 9y ago
Such selfless dedication to the customer. If only you were as dedicated to causes that didn’t involve making money. You seem to not be able to set boundaries for yourself, but somehow still work tirelessly, for what?
- mikekchar 9y ago
  I like working. I like making people happy. My job provides both opportunities and gives me money to boot. It's not really so bad.
- WillReplyfFood 9y ago
  The flow is a drug like all other drugs. Some shoot heroin, others shoot work.
fiblye 9y ago
The problem here in Asia is every manager loves working day and night, destroying their family life (or preventing themselves from even having one) and developing zero interests outside of work until they're of retirement age. The problem is that the people under the manager aren't all like this. Especially not 67.1% of them. The problem is that the vast majority of managers will ask you why you're in such a hurry to leave. It's only 8 o'clock and I'm still here. Are you implying that your business is more important than mine? Everyone else is staying here, so why are you leaving so soon? You know, if you keep leaving early, our division might not do well enough and we can't pay bonuses (which are really a full month's income that we deduct from your normal pay hold over your head for times like this). Is your wife asking you to come home early? I don't think a woman like that is good for you. I'll be frank, you're an exception. Most people here don't want to work overtime. The problem is they know that they need to, and they need to pretend to want to, or they'll be dealing with stuff like this every single day. Programmers are odd folks and we tend to like solving problems on our own, and money only makes it better. The average office worker in Japan making Excel spreadsheets at a rate of 2 boxes an hour isn't eager to be sitting there any longer. They're just know kacho will be on them and making them feel worthless because they're young and don't know the value of sacrificing their valuable life for the monetary gain of the CEO who inherited the company from his dad and never worked a day in his life. People who sleep more and do less overtime are more productive than those doing needless overtime. And when it comes to Asia, virtually all overtime is needless overtime. If work piles up from basic holidays or not putting in excess time, there are one of two problems: people aren't using their time properly, or more likely, companies should be hiring more people.
- mikekchar 9y ago
  I suppose we've had different experiences. I think virtually everyone would like to leave earlier, but the point is that they also don't want to disappoint. In my experience, it's not about kacho watching over them -- they'd still be there if kacho went home (and I've personally seen that the few times kacho went home early). The kacho is only there to be loyal to the workers -- he wants to leave too. Or at the very least he wants to go out for a drink. There definitely are people watching the clock and desperately trying to look busy while doing nothing, but again my experienced is that those people are pretty much despised by everybody else on the floor. There is a ton of work to be done. I only ever worked at the one school, but I have a really hard time believing that my school had exceptional workers. In fact, it was ranked near the bottom and was the place that problem teacher were sent in order to improve. We could argue about this forever I suppose. I don't disagree that the work methodology is needlessly inefficient, but I strongly disagree that your first sentence is true. The work culture here is different and everybody participates in it. There are parts of the work culture here I miss now that I'm working remotely for a UK company -- especially the dedication to working as a team.
mtgx 9y ago
Okay, but that's just anecdotal. Do you really think 2/3 of the workers there asked for this exemption of their own free will? Do 2/3 of the workers in your company want to work overtime?
- mikekchar 9y ago
  Yes, I really think that the majority of workers feel that going home earlier will decrease their happiness at work rather than increase it. Therefore they requested an exemption. Would they like the system to be improved so that they don't have to work late? Yes, I think they want that. My issue is with the characterisation that it is management that is forcing them to stay late. At least in my experience (in Japan) it just isn't true. It's just the work culture and everybody plays into it. That's why the government has to (and does) get involved. I'll stop posting about this because it's one of the things that frustrates me to no end. It's super easy to to jump to the conclusion that Asian companies and managers are just these monsters that chew up their employees without remorse, but I really think it is a widespread misunderstanding of cultural differences.
  - ForRealsies 9y ago
    I'd like to discuss the cultural side. Has Western society ever had such a... "workaholic" culture? Precisely, a widespread norm of choosing to work long hours which spans an entire working class.

taurath 9y ago

Such selfless dedication to the customer. If only you were as dedicated to causes that didn’t involve making money. You seem to not be able to set boundaries for yourself, but somehow still work tirelessly, for what?

mikekchar 9y ago
I like working. I like making people happy. My job provides both opportunities and gives me money to boot. It's not really so bad.
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
The flow is a drug like all other drugs. Some shoot heroin, others shoot work.

fiblye 9y ago

The problem here in Asia is every manager loves working day and night, destroying their family life (or preventing themselves from even having one) and developing zero interests outside of work until they're of retirement age. The problem is that the people under the manager aren't all like this. Especially not 67.1% of them. The problem is that the vast majority of managers will ask you why you're in such a hurry to leave. It's only 8 o'clock and I'm still here. Are you implying that your business is more important than mine? Everyone else is staying here, so why are you leaving so soon? You know, if you keep leaving early, our division might not do well enough and we can't pay bonuses (which are really a full month's income that we deduct from your normal pay hold over your head for times like this). Is your wife asking you to come home early? I don't think a woman like that is good for you. I'll be frank, you're an exception. Most people here don't want to work overtime. The problem is they know that they need to, and they need to pretend to want to, or they'll be dealing with stuff like this every single day. Programmers are odd folks and we tend to like solving problems on our own, and money only makes it better. The average office worker in Japan making Excel spreadsheets at a rate of 2 boxes an hour isn't eager to be sitting there any longer. They're just know kacho will be on them and making them feel worthless because they're young and don't know the value of sacrificing their valuable life for the monetary gain of the CEO who inherited the company from his dad and never worked a day in his life. People who sleep more and do less overtime are more productive than those doing needless overtime. And when it comes to Asia, virtually all overtime is needless overtime. If work piles up from basic holidays or not putting in excess time, there are one of two problems: people aren't using their time properly, or more likely, companies should be hiring more people.

mikekchar 9y ago
I suppose we've had different experiences. I think virtually everyone would like to leave earlier, but the point is that they also don't want to disappoint. In my experience, it's not about kacho watching over them -- they'd still be there if kacho went home (and I've personally seen that the few times kacho went home early). The kacho is only there to be loyal to the workers -- he wants to leave too. Or at the very least he wants to go out for a drink. There definitely are people watching the clock and desperately trying to look busy while doing nothing, but again my experienced is that those people are pretty much despised by everybody else on the floor. There is a ton of work to be done. I only ever worked at the one school, but I have a really hard time believing that my school had exceptional workers. In fact, it was ranked near the bottom and was the place that problem teacher were sent in order to improve. We could argue about this forever I suppose. I don't disagree that the work methodology is needlessly inefficient, but I strongly disagree that your first sentence is true. The work culture here is different and everybody participates in it. There are parts of the work culture here I miss now that I'm working remotely for a UK company -- especially the dedication to working as a team.

mtgx 9y ago

Okay, but that's just anecdotal. Do you really think 2/3 of the workers there asked for this exemption of their own free will? Do 2/3 of the workers in your company want to work overtime?

mikekchar 9y ago
Yes, I really think that the majority of workers feel that going home earlier will decrease their happiness at work rather than increase it. Therefore they requested an exemption. Would they like the system to be improved so that they don't have to work late? Yes, I think they want that. My issue is with the characterisation that it is management that is forcing them to stay late. At least in my experience (in Japan) it just isn't true. It's just the work culture and everybody plays into it. That's why the government has to (and does) get involved. I'll stop posting about this because it's one of the things that frustrates me to no end. It's super easy to to jump to the conclusion that Asian companies and managers are just these monsters that chew up their employees without remorse, but I really think it is a widespread misunderstanding of cultural differences.
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  I'd like to discuss the cultural side. Has Western society ever had such a... "workaholic" culture? Precisely, a widespread norm of choosing to work long hours which spans an entire working class.