4 ms·

It’s completely limiting free choice and voluntary interactions between consenting adults. A huge personals section just got shut down. Unless you think 100% of

It’s completely limiting free choice and voluntary interactions between consenting adults. A huge personals section just got shut down. Unless you think 100% of personal ads are coerced sex trafficking, which would be rather crazy opinion. If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution, not drive it farther underground.

jacobush 9y ago
How... does that follow? To reduce slavery, legalize prostitution? There must be some steps in between I am missing.
- valuearb 9y ago
  Legal prostitutes can call the police for help from pimps or others trying to abuse or coerce them, without fear of arrest. Legal prostitutes are incentivized to work with the police to report others being coerced, it’s competition. Bringing things out into the open helps clean them up. Keeping them in the dark allows evil to multiply. The next time Prohibition helped the people it was trying to protect will also be the first time.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Also, and directly related to your Prohibition comment, and to war on drugs - it's a matter of economics. Supply and demand. There is strong demand that you can't really eliminate. If you keep supply illegal, then supply becomes handled by organized crime, and all proceeds from the sale of goods/services go into growing organized crime.
  - jacobush 9y ago
    Thanks for your comment, and the others in the thread too. I think I must be tinted by how it works in Sweden. First of all, the word "trafficking" there is most of all associated with the trade of minors. Also, soliciting sex ("prostitution") is not illegal for adults. Buying the service is. This has some interesting implications. It caters to the "conservative base" who does not want to see fully legalized prostitution. It also protects "workers" who can always go to the police. It also makes it very clear, that unfortunately, there is a market for sex slaves, especially for children. Some will apparantly make an extra effort to pay for abusing a child. Given human nature, I expect these low-lifes must exist in the US too. Which is why the Prohibition thing rings false with me, especially the alcohol one. Alcohol was pretty much enjoyed by everyone to various degrees. Buying sexual services, while popular, not as much. So it's an analogy, but not the greatest. (Also ignoring that most sexual services are bought by men, while alcohol was/is used to a much larger degree by both sexes.)
    - barry-cotter 9y ago
      Whores don’t go to the police in Norway not because they won’t help with assault and such but because the police will get them evicted from their flats. https://books.google.nl/books?id=RAXtCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT172&lpg=PT172&dq=operation+houseless&source=bl&ots=4tLg-sW90B&sig=V0tLYzswm_VluvNuxgAwpusVsQ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifjpeSsYLaAhXMKFAKHRLyBWYQ6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=operation%20houseless&f=false https://books.google.nl/books?id=RAXtCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT172&lpg=P...
      - jacobush 9y ago
        The same book says traffickers are less likely to operate in Sweden since the law was introduced.
        barry-cotter 9y ago
        Traffickers would be even less likely to operate in Sweden if the penalty was death by crucifixion. Do you also support that? Forgive me if I’m not especially impressed by the think of the children rhetoric. Drawing a line from Lutherans to modern day Sweden isn’t exactly hard. The judgmental attitude hasn’t changed one iota.
- bobthepanda 9y ago
  Right now prostitution is associated with sex trafficking because it is illegal. There is no legal way to do the world's oldest profession. If prostitution was legal and well-regulated like it is in many countries, then workers would have to be documented, they'd get workers' rights, etc. There are people willing to do sex work of their own free will, and if you create a normal market for it, then people will not resort to illicit, lower-quality secondary markets dependent on sex trafficking. Here's the analogy: to reduce drug violence, legalize drugs.
  - bouncetime 9y ago
    We have legal prostitution now. Every time you take your “gf to dinner, you buy her gifts as her sugar daddy u get her a ring as a fiancée . It’s perception . If you spend days flirting and spending money and call them your date or gf. Then it’s legal but to fast track the date is illegal - everything is a game and control. Illegal drugs are illegal - legal drugs that kill and addicts are addicted to are legal . Again it’s all a game. If it’s anti bible or u can’t tax it, it won’t be legal.
- deelowe 9y ago
  You're missing the fact that virtually no one wants to have sex with slaves. If a legal, regulated industry existed for people to get what they wanted, the illegal market would go away. AFAIK Nevada doesn't have a huge issue with sex slaves.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    True, Nevada doesn't, but neither do any of the other 49 states.
Buge 9y ago
rpearl never claimed that it wasn't limiting free choice. rpearl claimed the intention wasn't to limit free choice. Intent and actual outcome are two completely different things.
- disiplus 9y ago
  it's still limiting if you define it to broadly. if i defined a law that said every owner of a home will be punished if somebody in that home smoked weed or did drugs. and airbnb is gone, and so on.
  - Buge 9y ago
    Neither I nor rpearl claimed it wasn't limiting. The intent was to protect people who are being harmed against their will (held in sex slavery against their will). Of course the actual effect of the law is different than the intent. The actual effect is limiting.
    - kcanini 9y ago
      Do you think the actual intent is closer the stated intent, or to the actual results? We're talking about seasoned politicians, not naive dreamers.
      - noxToken 9y ago
        The actual intent probably is closer to the stated intent. The actual results just don't matter to them.
- tajen 9y ago
  Intent and actual outcome are completely different things until you manage a country. Then you gotta be 1000% goddam sure you’re coercing others for the good reasons, and your responsibility can’t be levied for an “Oops I did it again”.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  Broadly speaking, I agree. But at a certain point, it's reasonable to start objecting that an outcome was so obvious that people claiming they didn't intend it are either dishonest or incompetent, and in either case unfit to make the decision. In this case, I suspect the answer is a little of each - a lot of anti-trafficking campaigns are run by people who openly oppose voluntary sex work, and also Congress is grossly incompetent at knowing which technology laws will limit free choice. Given all that - I agree that it's worth knowing whether this was intended, but I worry "not our intent" becomes a shield for Congress to hide behind when they do things with horrible outcomes they were warned about well in advance.
ksk 9y ago
>If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution, not drive it farther underground. What does that mean? Countries where prostitution is legal have little to no sex trafficking? What are you basing this on? In any case, hopefully as a society we'd want to reduce or eliminate prostitution, not enable it. To me, it is quite sad that a person feels compelled (in many cases) to sell themselves as a piece of meat.
reaperducer 9y ago
>If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution Yes, because legalized prostitution has totally curbed sex trafficking in places where it is legal like Nevada and Germany. Oh, except that it hasn't. Not even remotely.

jacobush 9y ago

How... does that follow? To reduce slavery, legalize prostitution? There must be some steps in between I am missing.

valuearb 9y ago
Legal prostitutes can call the police for help from pimps or others trying to abuse or coerce them, without fear of arrest. Legal prostitutes are incentivized to work with the police to report others being coerced, it’s competition. Bringing things out into the open helps clean them up. Keeping them in the dark allows evil to multiply. The next time Prohibition helped the people it was trying to protect will also be the first time.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Also, and directly related to your Prohibition comment, and to war on drugs - it's a matter of economics. Supply and demand. There is strong demand that you can't really eliminate. If you keep supply illegal, then supply becomes handled by organized crime, and all proceeds from the sale of goods/services go into growing organized crime.
- jacobush 9y ago
  Thanks for your comment, and the others in the thread too. I think I must be tinted by how it works in Sweden. First of all, the word "trafficking" there is most of all associated with the trade of minors. Also, soliciting sex ("prostitution") is not illegal for adults. Buying the service is. This has some interesting implications. It caters to the "conservative base" who does not want to see fully legalized prostitution. It also protects "workers" who can always go to the police. It also makes it very clear, that unfortunately, there is a market for sex slaves, especially for children. Some will apparantly make an extra effort to pay for abusing a child. Given human nature, I expect these low-lifes must exist in the US too. Which is why the Prohibition thing rings false with me, especially the alcohol one. Alcohol was pretty much enjoyed by everyone to various degrees. Buying sexual services, while popular, not as much. So it's an analogy, but not the greatest. (Also ignoring that most sexual services are bought by men, while alcohol was/is used to a much larger degree by both sexes.)
  - barry-cotter 9y ago
    Whores don’t go to the police in Norway not because they won’t help with assault and such but because the police will get them evicted from their flats. https://books.google.nl/books?id=RAXtCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT172&lpg=PT172&dq=operation+houseless&source=bl&ots=4tLg-sW90B&sig=V0tLYzswm_VluvNuxgAwpusVsQ8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwifjpeSsYLaAhXMKFAKHRLyBWYQ6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=operation%20houseless&f=false https://books.google.nl/books?id=RAXtCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT172&lpg=P...
    - jacobush 9y ago
      The same book says traffickers are less likely to operate in Sweden since the law was introduced.
      - barry-cotter 9y ago
        Traffickers would be even less likely to operate in Sweden if the penalty was death by crucifixion. Do you also support that? Forgive me if I’m not especially impressed by the think of the children rhetoric. Drawing a line from Lutherans to modern day Sweden isn’t exactly hard. The judgmental attitude hasn’t changed one iota.
bobthepanda 9y ago
Right now prostitution is associated with sex trafficking because it is illegal. There is no legal way to do the world's oldest profession. If prostitution was legal and well-regulated like it is in many countries, then workers would have to be documented, they'd get workers' rights, etc. There are people willing to do sex work of their own free will, and if you create a normal market for it, then people will not resort to illicit, lower-quality secondary markets dependent on sex trafficking. Here's the analogy: to reduce drug violence, legalize drugs.
- bouncetime 9y ago
  We have legal prostitution now. Every time you take your “gf to dinner, you buy her gifts as her sugar daddy u get her a ring as a fiancée . It’s perception . If you spend days flirting and spending money and call them your date or gf. Then it’s legal but to fast track the date is illegal - everything is a game and control. Illegal drugs are illegal - legal drugs that kill and addicts are addicted to are legal . Again it’s all a game. If it’s anti bible or u can’t tax it, it won’t be legal.
deelowe 9y ago
You're missing the fact that virtually no one wants to have sex with slaves. If a legal, regulated industry existed for people to get what they wanted, the illegal market would go away. AFAIK Nevada doesn't have a huge issue with sex slaves.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  True, Nevada doesn't, but neither do any of the other 49 states.

Buge 9y ago

rpearl never claimed that it wasn't limiting free choice. rpearl claimed the intention wasn't to limit free choice. Intent and actual outcome are two completely different things.

disiplus 9y ago
it's still limiting if you define it to broadly. if i defined a law that said every owner of a home will be punished if somebody in that home smoked weed or did drugs. and airbnb is gone, and so on.
- Buge 9y ago
  Neither I nor rpearl claimed it wasn't limiting. The intent was to protect people who are being harmed against their will (held in sex slavery against their will). Of course the actual effect of the law is different than the intent. The actual effect is limiting.
  - kcanini 9y ago
    Do you think the actual intent is closer the stated intent, or to the actual results? We're talking about seasoned politicians, not naive dreamers.
    - noxToken 9y ago
      The actual intent probably is closer to the stated intent. The actual results just don't matter to them.
tajen 9y ago
Intent and actual outcome are completely different things until you manage a country. Then you gotta be 1000% goddam sure you’re coercing others for the good reasons, and your responsibility can’t be levied for an “Oops I did it again”.
Bartweiss 9y ago
Broadly speaking, I agree. But at a certain point, it's reasonable to start objecting that an outcome was so obvious that people claiming they didn't intend it are either dishonest or incompetent, and in either case unfit to make the decision. In this case, I suspect the answer is a little of each - a lot of anti-trafficking campaigns are run by people who openly oppose voluntary sex work, and also Congress is grossly incompetent at knowing which technology laws will limit free choice. Given all that - I agree that it's worth knowing whether this was intended, but I worry "not our intent" becomes a shield for Congress to hide behind when they do things with horrible outcomes they were warned about well in advance.

ksk 9y ago

>If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution, not drive it farther underground. What does that mean? Countries where prostitution is legal have little to no sex trafficking? What are you basing this on? In any case, hopefully as a society we'd want to reduce or eliminate prostitution, not enable it. To me, it is quite sad that a person feels compelled (in many cases) to sell themselves as a piece of meat.

reaperducer 9y ago

>If you truly wanted to curb sex trafficking, you’d legalize prostitution Yes, because legalized prostitution has totally curbed sex trafficking in places where it is legal like Nevada and Germany. Oh, except that it hasn't. Not even remotely.