6 ms·

Make America protectionist again?

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Hollowed out middle America probably appreciates it versus everyone else getting the consumer excess from cheap goods from china. Keep the globalism. It pains me to say I agree with this action.
- scarmig 9y ago
  How will this help "hollowed out" America? Is the promise that West Virginia will become the next Shenzhen?
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    Not explicitly related, but funny enough— it comes on the same day this news came out. It seems like they're already done with the guy, anyway: U.S. miners' union to endorse two more Democrats in coal country https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-coal-endorsements-exclus/exclusive-u-s-miners-union-to-endorse-two-more-democrats-in-coal-country-idUSKBN1GY1YM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-coal-endorse...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - newfriend 9y ago
      How is this funny? Don't unions typically endorse Democratic candidates? Union workers are not the same thing as union leadership. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Mine_Workers#Recent_Elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Mine_Workers#Recent_Ele...
  - product50 9y ago
    It brings in jobs from manufacturing given the levees will make it more expensive to import from China. At least that is the rationale.
    - robryan 9y ago
      Only if companies perceive this as stable. It might take 10-20 years to pay off the investment of moving manufacturing to the US. Trump policies are very unstable themselves but there is a good chance these policies might be quickly reversed by the next administration.
      - rbobby 9y ago
        There's also a chance Trump himself might reverse course in the next few weeks. Trump's steel and aluminum tariffs went from "no exceptions" to a handful over the course of a month.
      - product50 9y ago
        Most policies are long term. You can't win this game if your timeline is 2 yrs or you just give up assuming in the long term we are all doomed.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- pishpash 9y ago
  What? Middle America probably benefits the most from cheap goods because they need to buy them. "Everyone else" are the ones who can either afford to be brand-conscious or are too poor to buy anything.
  - drak0n1c 9y ago
    The reason why Middle America has so little spending power is because regulations and taxes have decimated their manufacturing and resource extraction industries and effectively moved them overseas. This of course led to a loss of specialized workers who can pass down their skills and loss of technical knowledge. Flossing your teeth may be unpleasant in the short-term, but it has long-term benefits.
    - Analemma_ 9y ago
      [citation needed] on every last bit of this. You've bundled a whole bunch of claims into a short space, and all of them are wrong. > regulations and taxes Measured in GDP, American manufacturing has increased since 2000. This suggests that the chief culprit is automation, especially when China's taxes aren't significantly less than ours. > resource extraction industries Need a citation here too. What percentage of the middle class derived its income from resource extraction even when that was at its peak in America? And don't forget to exclude coal from that percentage, because the decline of coal is mostly because it's now cost-uncompetitive with LNG and solar. Nothing about America's current economic woes is going to be fixed by a Chinese tariff. This is firing blind and aiming in the wrong direction.
      - drak0n1c 9y ago
        Manufacturing output may have increased along the curve of a plateau, but it is still much lower than what it would be in an unregulated environment. https://www.mercatus.org/publication/cumulative-cost-regulations https://www.mercatus.org/publication/cumulative-cost-regulat... Why do you say they are aimed in the wrong direction? They are reciprocal and only in industrial sectors where China already has tariffs on our goods up to 10x larger than our rates.
- galieos_ghost 9y ago
  The promise of cheaper goods is a lie. Corporations outsourced labor and then kept the difference as profit instead of passing the savings onto consumers. Hence why corporate profits are at record highs while the average American's buying power continues to drop.
- IAmEveryone 9y ago
  If you really want to open the tired old “middle America” vs the “coastal elites“ cliche, you may want to consider that the US exports significant amounts of agricultural products to China, which are likely to suffer first. And unless they have children willing to stitch sneakers, any new jobs are far more likey to be created in Vietnam or Bangladesh than Kansas.
oh_sigh 9y ago
Do you view any tariff as protectionist, even if China is illegally subsidizing certain industries and stealing intellectual property? Or do you just not buy that China is actually operating against trade agreements they signed?
- kregasaurusrex 9y ago
  From an IP basis, I do agree that China is on a land grab to establish its own patent system because of how new it is. It's also unfair to the Utility Model which the US lacks to be attacked by these higher import costs- markets like Shenzen flourish because of it's ability to sell so many things for so cheap. I for one enjoy the ability to buy cheap electronic parts from Aliexpress and Ebay without minding the high lead time because of the low barrier to entry and creative freedom it grants to buy more parts; and see this tariff as being more of a defensive move than a reciprocal agreement.
- vkou 9y ago
  Entire swathes of high-end US industry are propped up by DoD procurement - a thinly disguised state subsidy. This has a huge trickle-down effect on propping up their upstream suppliers, and, by proxy, unrelated manufacturing segments.

Hollowed out middle America probably appreciates it versus everyone else getting the consumer excess from cheap goods from china. Keep the globalism. It pains me to say I agree with this action.

scarmig 9y ago
How will this help "hollowed out" America? Is the promise that West Virginia will become the next Shenzhen?
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  Not explicitly related, but funny enough— it comes on the same day this news came out. It seems like they're already done with the guy, anyway: U.S. miners' union to endorse two more Democrats in coal country https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-coal-endorsements-exclus/exclusive-u-s-miners-union-to-endorse-two-more-democrats-in-coal-country-idUSKBN1GY1YM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-coal-endorse...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - newfriend 9y ago
    How is this funny? Don't unions typically endorse Democratic candidates? Union workers are not the same thing as union leadership. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Mine_Workers#Recent_Elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Mine_Workers#Recent_Ele...
- product50 9y ago
  It brings in jobs from manufacturing given the levees will make it more expensive to import from China. At least that is the rationale.
  - robryan 9y ago
    Only if companies perceive this as stable. It might take 10-20 years to pay off the investment of moving manufacturing to the US. Trump policies are very unstable themselves but there is a good chance these policies might be quickly reversed by the next administration.
    - rbobby 9y ago
      There's also a chance Trump himself might reverse course in the next few weeks. Trump's steel and aluminum tariffs went from "no exceptions" to a handful over the course of a month.
    - product50 9y ago
      Most policies are long term. You can't win this game if your timeline is 2 yrs or you just give up assuming in the long term we are all doomed.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
pishpash 9y ago
What? Middle America probably benefits the most from cheap goods because they need to buy them. "Everyone else" are the ones who can either afford to be brand-conscious or are too poor to buy anything.
- drak0n1c 9y ago
  The reason why Middle America has so little spending power is because regulations and taxes have decimated their manufacturing and resource extraction industries and effectively moved them overseas. This of course led to a loss of specialized workers who can pass down their skills and loss of technical knowledge. Flossing your teeth may be unpleasant in the short-term, but it has long-term benefits.
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    [citation needed] on every last bit of this. You've bundled a whole bunch of claims into a short space, and all of them are wrong. > regulations and taxes Measured in GDP, American manufacturing has increased since 2000. This suggests that the chief culprit is automation, especially when China's taxes aren't significantly less than ours. > resource extraction industries Need a citation here too. What percentage of the middle class derived its income from resource extraction even when that was at its peak in America? And don't forget to exclude coal from that percentage, because the decline of coal is mostly because it's now cost-uncompetitive with LNG and solar. Nothing about America's current economic woes is going to be fixed by a Chinese tariff. This is firing blind and aiming in the wrong direction.
    - drak0n1c 9y ago
      Manufacturing output may have increased along the curve of a plateau, but it is still much lower than what it would be in an unregulated environment. https://www.mercatus.org/publication/cumulative-cost-regulations https://www.mercatus.org/publication/cumulative-cost-regulat... Why do you say they are aimed in the wrong direction? They are reciprocal and only in industrial sectors where China already has tariffs on our goods up to 10x larger than our rates.
galieos_ghost 9y ago
The promise of cheaper goods is a lie. Corporations outsourced labor and then kept the difference as profit instead of passing the savings onto consumers. Hence why corporate profits are at record highs while the average American's buying power continues to drop.
IAmEveryone 9y ago
If you really want to open the tired old “middle America” vs the “coastal elites“ cliche, you may want to consider that the US exports significant amounts of agricultural products to China, which are likely to suffer first. And unless they have children willing to stitch sneakers, any new jobs are far more likey to be created in Vietnam or Bangladesh than Kansas.

oh_sigh 9y ago

Do you view any tariff as protectionist, even if China is illegally subsidizing certain industries and stealing intellectual property? Or do you just not buy that China is actually operating against trade agreements they signed?

kregasaurusrex 9y ago
From an IP basis, I do agree that China is on a land grab to establish its own patent system because of how new it is. It's also unfair to the Utility Model which the US lacks to be attacked by these higher import costs- markets like Shenzen flourish because of it's ability to sell so many things for so cheap. I for one enjoy the ability to buy cheap electronic parts from Aliexpress and Ebay without minding the high lead time because of the low barrier to entry and creative freedom it grants to buy more parts; and see this tariff as being more of a defensive move than a reciprocal agreement.
vkou 9y ago
Entire swathes of high-end US industry are propped up by DoD procurement - a thinly disguised state subsidy. This has a huge trickle-down effect on propping up their upstream suppliers, and, by proxy, unrelated manufacturing segments.