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For all the crap Tesla gets, this shows why they are so necessary. Switching to electric car production is a huge disruption for the existing auto industry. It

For all the crap Tesla gets, this shows why they are so necessary. Switching to electric car production is a huge disruption for the existing auto industry. It basically eliminates the dealer service revenue, and turns the supply chain upside down. I doubt they would be making any effort in electric cars if the threat of Tesla did not exist. Even as it is, they are dragging their feet.

sschueller 9y ago
Why would it need to destroy the dealer network and the right to repair your own car? Only because Tesla runs their business like a software house doesn't mean the others need to follow suit. The German car makers also make gas powered vehicles versions of some of their fleet which are quite different from gasoline cars. What takes time is building the facilities and technology to create reliable and serviceable electric vehicles.
- syncsynchalt 9y ago
  Electric cars have an order of magnitude fewer parts than an ICE car. This ripples all through an established automaker's revenue and production models, from service contracts, supplier partnerships and agreements, dealer networks, warehousing and fulfillment, and so on. There is probably a lot for an established automaker to untangle, some of which they'll be sued for if they try to follow Tesla's route. With that said I don't think it's the reason BMW is not ready to mass produce electric, and I take them at their word in the article. If you're going to break into the electric market it's going to take a lot of money to shoulder past the three marques that got there first (Tesla, Nissan, Toyota).
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  The dealer network is an unnecessary middle man acting as a parasite extracting value from the system. You can enforce the right to repair through legislation without dealers. > What takes time is building the facilities and technology to create reliable and serviceable electric vehicles. The battery supply chain is the hardest part, but EV powertrains are so much more simple than an internal combustion powertrain. There is very little maintenance required on an EV drivetrain as well. That's why Tesla is warrantying their Semi drivetrains for a million miles.
  - sschueller 9y ago
    Funny thing is there is already legislation and laws for the right to repair yet Tesla is able to go around it.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      Software is covered around copyright law, which is different than right to repair. I'm fine not owning the software my Tesla runs, nor having access to the source code, but I agree that legislation should require Tesla provide tooling that allows for diagnostics and canbus control for repairs (such as for issuing commands to the powertrain and ancillary systems).
      - ghaff 9y ago
        AFAIK Tesla only provides access to service manuals in Massachusetts which has a right to repair law. Online subscription that’s just $30 per hour or $3000 per year.
        nugi 9y ago
        Which is why I will never own, or reccomend their brand. Don't give up rights for gadgets.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    EV drive trains are more simple but that's not really a problem with modern ICE drive trains. That technology is so mature and well developed that any car is going to go at least 100k miles, well beyond any warranty period. There are benefits to the electric drive train but that's not the limitation. The rest of the car isn't really any different and because the battery is so expensive (as you point out) the rest of the electric car really suffers. This appears to be what BMW is saying.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > That technology is so mature and well developed that any car is going to go at least 100k miles, well beyond any warranty period. 100k miles isn't “well beyond any warranty period” for non-EV powertrains; a number of car brands have a base (not extended) 10yr/100k mile powertrains warranty.
- sillypuddy 9y ago
  Could be that electric cars just require less maintenance.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    That's not been my (limited) experience with Tesla. They build all the components in the car. Things like electric seats and door actuators seem to fail frequently. A Tesla still has a lot of parts to go wrong, even if the drive train is simpler and more robust. Most new ICE cars don't have massive power train problems either. The reliability issues are in auxiliary systems.
    - Robotbeat 9y ago
      But the person you're replying to said "electric cars" not "Teslas." The non-powertrain components are irrelevant for this comparison. As far as ICE powertrains being fairly reliable, that is a triumph of engineering and due to literally trillions of dollars of investments. And yet regular maintenance on the powertrain is required even today, whereas electric powertrains do not have such requirements.
      - ilovecars2 9y ago
        Is there no maintenance requirements on electric power trains at all?
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Electric cars don't have engines or transmissions. But lately I have not found that that is where problems occur. They still have all the other things that ordinary cars have such as tires, brakes, wheel bearings, suspension parts including shocks, springs, struts, sway bars, bushings and links, steering mechanisms, electronic control systems both for the motor and the interior accessories, all kinds of small things like power windows, power seats, lights, entertainment and navigation, many of which need periodic replacement if not routine maintenance, and all of which may fail unexpectedly and require repair.
- mulmen 9y ago
  My experience with BMW dealerships is that they are borderline criminal organizations. I have never taken my car in for a repair without them breaking something else. I was quoted $15,000.00 for a new head because they failed to gap a spark plug. They remove the access panel in the aero pan when doing oil changes and don't replace it. They over torque everything (drain plug, filter cover, etc). They broke a wiring harness mount when doing routine maintenance. Just ripped it off instead of releasing the clips. They scratch up the interior when pulling the steering column apart for airbag recalls. They broke a headlight housing when replacing a light bulb. They curbed my wheels and then told me it couldn't be them because "there are no curbs here". The service manager said this while standing on a curb. These people are predators. The incentives are perverse and they do nothing but exploit their customers and the manufacturer. My hope is that Tesla's approach will push the costs of these unnecessary repairs and shoddy workmanship up the chain where the parent company actually has an incentive to fix them. At this point the only way I would consider buying a new BMW is if I was able to find an independent shop that can still do warranty work. Still searching for that.
  - vesrah 9y ago
    What modern BMW uses plugs that aren't pregapped?
    - tsomctl 9y ago
      Used spark plugs are going to have a bigger gap.
      - mulmen 9y ago
        These were (supposedly) new plugs. The car threw up a service light around 60k miles for new coils and plugs. This is routine maintenance. The problem was not a gap that was too large, the problem was 0 gap.
    - mulmen 9y ago
      I assume the plugs were pre-gapped at time of manufacture. Maybe they dropped this plug, maybe it was a bad batch or a defect, maybe they did it on purpose. For the shop rate at a BMW dealer they can take the time to check the gap. Regardless of the root cause the dealer installed a plug with the ground bent into the electrode which caused a misfire. They misdiagnosed it as a bent valve and told me that I probably missed a shift at freeway speed and slammed the car into second gear, causing the engine to over-rev and skip a tooth on the timing chain. Somehow this bent only one valve and the other 23 are still fine. Oh and it ran fine until they had it in their shop. Also the timing chain is still in the correct timing. I told them to get bent and took it to an independent shop that fixed the problem for $45.00. The BMW dealer claimed there was low compression and a misfire on cylinder 4. My independent mechanic found perfect compression on all six cylinders and a misfire on cylinder 6 (the one with the bent plug). I went back to the BMW dealer and they refunded me the $4,000.00 in unnecessary repairs they did. At this point I think they are either intentionally sabotaging customer cars because they get away with it or the incentives drive them to employ complete idiots. Either way the most dangerous place to take a BMW is the dealer.
- hobofan 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure no car maker has a problem with getting rid of the right to repair, and dwindling number of independent repair shops shows that.
- llsf 9y ago
  You are right, in theory one can go electric and keep a dealer network. Although, the maintenance is supposed to be dramatically less (less moving parts in EV vs. ICE, no complex engine). So, even if you want to keep the dealer network, they would make far less money than they use to. The dealer network might just die slowly. Tesla decided to rip the band-aid. Legacy car manufacturers might have to deal with this issue, and repurpose their expensive network. You still repair an electric car yourself (esp. body). But those electric cars are getting more and more sophisticated, it would be more like repairing an iPhone.
- odammit 9y ago
  To be crass, fuck their dealer network - and all car dealer networks. What an ass backwards way to do business in this day and age. That model needs to be disrupt at least - die in a fire preferably.
- rconti 9y ago
  As a BMW owner, I don't have a desire to own an electric BMW. The magic of what Tesla's doing is the cool tech that makes one lust after one of their cars in ways you don't lust after other 'boring' sedans. (of course, you might still lust after a gas sports car!) The secret sauce is the community, the supercharger network, the ability to seamlessly plan a trip with every charge stop pre-populated and supercharger availability right there on the screen and updated on the fly. IMO, it makes everything else feel janky and outdated. An electric BMW looks like an existing car with electric bits bolted on, and good luck figuring out where to charge.
  - majormajor 9y ago
    > As a BMW owner, I don't have a desire to own an electric BMW. The magic of what Tesla's doing is the cool tech that makes one lust after one of their cars in ways you don't lust after other 'boring' sedans. The biggest issue with BMWs is overcomplicated electronics and software leading to bugs or eventual weird glitches. I stopped buying them because of this, and IMO the Teslas looks even worse. I see a lot of used cars in my future. As to the network stuff, and charger availability on the screen: isn't that purely an early-adopter problem? Why wouldn't chargers be as prevalent as gas stations?
    - rconti 9y ago
      I'd say it's largely an early-adopter problem, but likely will stand for at least the next 5 years, which is critical when making a purchase today. Tesla charging infrastructure "just works", and charges quickly, at generally-known rates. I've perused other charging station maps and they're all hit-or-miss. You'll get 220v but not high amperage. You'll find the charger does't work. You'll find the chargers are full and cars are just parked there not going anywhere (Tesla works around this by charging people money for leaving their cars on a charger after they're full). You'll find the charger is private -- can only be used by employees of the office building you drove to, relying on finding a charger there. That said, this system works fine for 99.9% of daily driving where you charge in known places -- every day at home, or every day at work, or whatever. But the more I've looked into the charging infrastructure for non-Tesla vehicles, the LESS impressed I've been. At many of these public chargers you'll have to be parked for 4+ hours to get even 20-30 miles' worth of charge.
- NotSammyHagar 9y ago
  because dealers don't want to sell evs very much because they have less maintenance, they are basically reducing their future revenue for every ev they sell.
  - floatrock 9y ago
    Margins on cars alone are small. Dealers make something like a third of their revenue from their service contracts. (Well, that and undercarriage coatings...) With EV's breaking down less often and less routine maintenance because they just have fewer moving parts, that's going to destroy the dealer business model.
whoisjuan 9y ago
Probably not, but they don't care about Tesla either. Tesla is pretty far from being a car industry incumbent. Basically, Tesla is doing all the dirty job of validating the market for the incumbents. Companies like VW actually have the know-how and years of experience to scale any electric car ambitions very rapidly. Tesla is still trying to figure out how to mass produce cars and based on the current velocity of the Model 3 production they still have a bunch of things to learn and figure out.
lttlrck 9y ago
How does it eliminate dealer service revenue? If anything goes wrong on a car these days it has been my experience it's quite unlikely to be anything specific to ICE. It'll be electromechanical (mirrors, seats, windows, locks), electrical (heating, cooling), mechanical (suspension bushes, axle boots, springs) and the biggest wear items brake and tires also remain...
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  > If anything goes wrong on a car these days it has been my experience it's quite unlikely to be anything specific to ICE. This is very much correct. For the warranty period (after which the OEM doesn't care and the customer stops taking it to the dealer) most maintenance is suspension components and leaks. This doesn't eliminate dealer service revenue. If anything it makes it better because you remove the entire class of time consuming but low paying warranty jobs.
- jgibson 9y ago
  Tires are definitely still a factor, but regenerative braking reduces the wear on the brakes quite significantly. You also don't have a lot of the "regular maintenance" items like oil changes, transmission fluid changes, coolant flushing, spark plugs, air intake filters, exhaust gas sensors and so on.
  - nugi 9y ago
    Less wear is actually worse for brakes. The hard use of brakes coats the iron surface with pad material. Without this coating, braking is uneven and not 100%. This is why many mfgs have brake bedding coatings and/or procedures. On a related note, most 'warped rotors' are not warped, but have uneven pad deposits, creating stickier spots on the rotor/drum.
- fpoling 9y ago
  I second that. I had Yaris hybrid from Toyota and the biggest problem with it was rust in brakes. As the car typically engaged regenerative braking charging the battery there was too little heat in the brakes. That lead to accumulation of moisture and rust. After Toyota replaced the brakes the second time within 3 years they strongly advise to brake really hard once each few days. There was zero other problems.

sschueller 9y ago

Why would it need to destroy the dealer network and the right to repair your own car? Only because Tesla runs their business like a software house doesn't mean the others need to follow suit. The German car makers also make gas powered vehicles versions of some of their fleet which are quite different from gasoline cars. What takes time is building the facilities and technology to create reliable and serviceable electric vehicles.

syncsynchalt 9y ago
Electric cars have an order of magnitude fewer parts than an ICE car. This ripples all through an established automaker's revenue and production models, from service contracts, supplier partnerships and agreements, dealer networks, warehousing and fulfillment, and so on. There is probably a lot for an established automaker to untangle, some of which they'll be sued for if they try to follow Tesla's route. With that said I don't think it's the reason BMW is not ready to mass produce electric, and I take them at their word in the article. If you're going to break into the electric market it's going to take a lot of money to shoulder past the three marques that got there first (Tesla, Nissan, Toyota).
toomuchtodo 9y ago
The dealer network is an unnecessary middle man acting as a parasite extracting value from the system. You can enforce the right to repair through legislation without dealers. > What takes time is building the facilities and technology to create reliable and serviceable electric vehicles. The battery supply chain is the hardest part, but EV powertrains are so much more simple than an internal combustion powertrain. There is very little maintenance required on an EV drivetrain as well. That's why Tesla is warrantying their Semi drivetrains for a million miles.
- sschueller 9y ago
  Funny thing is there is already legislation and laws for the right to repair yet Tesla is able to go around it.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Software is covered around copyright law, which is different than right to repair. I'm fine not owning the software my Tesla runs, nor having access to the source code, but I agree that legislation should require Tesla provide tooling that allows for diagnostics and canbus control for repairs (such as for issuing commands to the powertrain and ancillary systems).
    - ghaff 9y ago
      AFAIK Tesla only provides access to service manuals in Massachusetts which has a right to repair law. Online subscription that’s just $30 per hour or $3000 per year.
      - nugi 9y ago
        Which is why I will never own, or reccomend their brand. Don't give up rights for gadgets.
- mulmen 9y ago
  EV drive trains are more simple but that's not really a problem with modern ICE drive trains. That technology is so mature and well developed that any car is going to go at least 100k miles, well beyond any warranty period. There are benefits to the electric drive train but that's not the limitation. The rest of the car isn't really any different and because the battery is so expensive (as you point out) the rest of the electric car really suffers. This appears to be what BMW is saying.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > That technology is so mature and well developed that any car is going to go at least 100k miles, well beyond any warranty period. 100k miles isn't “well beyond any warranty period” for non-EV powertrains; a number of car brands have a base (not extended) 10yr/100k mile powertrains warranty.
sillypuddy 9y ago
Could be that electric cars just require less maintenance.
- mulmen 9y ago
  That's not been my (limited) experience with Tesla. They build all the components in the car. Things like electric seats and door actuators seem to fail frequently. A Tesla still has a lot of parts to go wrong, even if the drive train is simpler and more robust. Most new ICE cars don't have massive power train problems either. The reliability issues are in auxiliary systems.
  - Robotbeat 9y ago
    But the person you're replying to said "electric cars" not "Teslas." The non-powertrain components are irrelevant for this comparison. As far as ICE powertrains being fairly reliable, that is a triumph of engineering and due to literally trillions of dollars of investments. And yet regular maintenance on the powertrain is required even today, whereas electric powertrains do not have such requirements.
    - ilovecars2 9y ago
      Is there no maintenance requirements on electric power trains at all?
- ams6110 9y ago
  Electric cars don't have engines or transmissions. But lately I have not found that that is where problems occur. They still have all the other things that ordinary cars have such as tires, brakes, wheel bearings, suspension parts including shocks, springs, struts, sway bars, bushings and links, steering mechanisms, electronic control systems both for the motor and the interior accessories, all kinds of small things like power windows, power seats, lights, entertainment and navigation, many of which need periodic replacement if not routine maintenance, and all of which may fail unexpectedly and require repair.
mulmen 9y ago
My experience with BMW dealerships is that they are borderline criminal organizations. I have never taken my car in for a repair without them breaking something else. I was quoted $15,000.00 for a new head because they failed to gap a spark plug. They remove the access panel in the aero pan when doing oil changes and don't replace it. They over torque everything (drain plug, filter cover, etc). They broke a wiring harness mount when doing routine maintenance. Just ripped it off instead of releasing the clips. They scratch up the interior when pulling the steering column apart for airbag recalls. They broke a headlight housing when replacing a light bulb. They curbed my wheels and then told me it couldn't be them because "there are no curbs here". The service manager said this while standing on a curb. These people are predators. The incentives are perverse and they do nothing but exploit their customers and the manufacturer. My hope is that Tesla's approach will push the costs of these unnecessary repairs and shoddy workmanship up the chain where the parent company actually has an incentive to fix them. At this point the only way I would consider buying a new BMW is if I was able to find an independent shop that can still do warranty work. Still searching for that.
- vesrah 9y ago
  What modern BMW uses plugs that aren't pregapped?
  - tsomctl 9y ago
    Used spark plugs are going to have a bigger gap.
    - mulmen 9y ago
      These were (supposedly) new plugs. The car threw up a service light around 60k miles for new coils and plugs. This is routine maintenance. The problem was not a gap that was too large, the problem was 0 gap.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    I assume the plugs were pre-gapped at time of manufacture. Maybe they dropped this plug, maybe it was a bad batch or a defect, maybe they did it on purpose. For the shop rate at a BMW dealer they can take the time to check the gap. Regardless of the root cause the dealer installed a plug with the ground bent into the electrode which caused a misfire. They misdiagnosed it as a bent valve and told me that I probably missed a shift at freeway speed and slammed the car into second gear, causing the engine to over-rev and skip a tooth on the timing chain. Somehow this bent only one valve and the other 23 are still fine. Oh and it ran fine until they had it in their shop. Also the timing chain is still in the correct timing. I told them to get bent and took it to an independent shop that fixed the problem for $45.00. The BMW dealer claimed there was low compression and a misfire on cylinder 4. My independent mechanic found perfect compression on all six cylinders and a misfire on cylinder 6 (the one with the bent plug). I went back to the BMW dealer and they refunded me the $4,000.00 in unnecessary repairs they did. At this point I think they are either intentionally sabotaging customer cars because they get away with it or the incentives drive them to employ complete idiots. Either way the most dangerous place to take a BMW is the dealer.
hobofan 9y ago
I'm pretty sure no car maker has a problem with getting rid of the right to repair, and dwindling number of independent repair shops shows that.
llsf 9y ago
You are right, in theory one can go electric and keep a dealer network. Although, the maintenance is supposed to be dramatically less (less moving parts in EV vs. ICE, no complex engine). So, even if you want to keep the dealer network, they would make far less money than they use to. The dealer network might just die slowly. Tesla decided to rip the band-aid. Legacy car manufacturers might have to deal with this issue, and repurpose their expensive network. You still repair an electric car yourself (esp. body). But those electric cars are getting more and more sophisticated, it would be more like repairing an iPhone.
odammit 9y ago
To be crass, fuck their dealer network - and all car dealer networks. What an ass backwards way to do business in this day and age. That model needs to be disrupt at least - die in a fire preferably.
rconti 9y ago
As a BMW owner, I don't have a desire to own an electric BMW. The magic of what Tesla's doing is the cool tech that makes one lust after one of their cars in ways you don't lust after other 'boring' sedans. (of course, you might still lust after a gas sports car!) The secret sauce is the community, the supercharger network, the ability to seamlessly plan a trip with every charge stop pre-populated and supercharger availability right there on the screen and updated on the fly. IMO, it makes everything else feel janky and outdated. An electric BMW looks like an existing car with electric bits bolted on, and good luck figuring out where to charge.
- majormajor 9y ago
  > As a BMW owner, I don't have a desire to own an electric BMW. The magic of what Tesla's doing is the cool tech that makes one lust after one of their cars in ways you don't lust after other 'boring' sedans. The biggest issue with BMWs is overcomplicated electronics and software leading to bugs or eventual weird glitches. I stopped buying them because of this, and IMO the Teslas looks even worse. I see a lot of used cars in my future. As to the network stuff, and charger availability on the screen: isn't that purely an early-adopter problem? Why wouldn't chargers be as prevalent as gas stations?
  - rconti 9y ago
    I'd say it's largely an early-adopter problem, but likely will stand for at least the next 5 years, which is critical when making a purchase today. Tesla charging infrastructure "just works", and charges quickly, at generally-known rates. I've perused other charging station maps and they're all hit-or-miss. You'll get 220v but not high amperage. You'll find the charger does't work. You'll find the chargers are full and cars are just parked there not going anywhere (Tesla works around this by charging people money for leaving their cars on a charger after they're full). You'll find the charger is private -- can only be used by employees of the office building you drove to, relying on finding a charger there. That said, this system works fine for 99.9% of daily driving where you charge in known places -- every day at home, or every day at work, or whatever. But the more I've looked into the charging infrastructure for non-Tesla vehicles, the LESS impressed I've been. At many of these public chargers you'll have to be parked for 4+ hours to get even 20-30 miles' worth of charge.
NotSammyHagar 9y ago
because dealers don't want to sell evs very much because they have less maintenance, they are basically reducing their future revenue for every ev they sell.
- floatrock 9y ago
  Margins on cars alone are small. Dealers make something like a third of their revenue from their service contracts. (Well, that and undercarriage coatings...) With EV's breaking down less often and less routine maintenance because they just have fewer moving parts, that's going to destroy the dealer business model.

whoisjuan 9y ago

Probably not, but they don't care about Tesla either. Tesla is pretty far from being a car industry incumbent. Basically, Tesla is doing all the dirty job of validating the market for the incumbents. Companies like VW actually have the know-how and years of experience to scale any electric car ambitions very rapidly. Tesla is still trying to figure out how to mass produce cars and based on the current velocity of the Model 3 production they still have a bunch of things to learn and figure out.

lttlrck 9y ago

How does it eliminate dealer service revenue? If anything goes wrong on a car these days it has been my experience it's quite unlikely to be anything specific to ICE. It'll be electromechanical (mirrors, seats, windows, locks), electrical (heating, cooling), mechanical (suspension bushes, axle boots, springs) and the biggest wear items brake and tires also remain...

dsfyu404ed 9y ago
> If anything goes wrong on a car these days it has been my experience it's quite unlikely to be anything specific to ICE. This is very much correct. For the warranty period (after which the OEM doesn't care and the customer stops taking it to the dealer) most maintenance is suspension components and leaks. This doesn't eliminate dealer service revenue. If anything it makes it better because you remove the entire class of time consuming but low paying warranty jobs.
jgibson 9y ago
Tires are definitely still a factor, but regenerative braking reduces the wear on the brakes quite significantly. You also don't have a lot of the "regular maintenance" items like oil changes, transmission fluid changes, coolant flushing, spark plugs, air intake filters, exhaust gas sensors and so on.
- nugi 9y ago
  Less wear is actually worse for brakes. The hard use of brakes coats the iron surface with pad material. Without this coating, braking is uneven and not 100%. This is why many mfgs have brake bedding coatings and/or procedures. On a related note, most 'warped rotors' are not warped, but have uneven pad deposits, creating stickier spots on the rotor/drum.
fpoling 9y ago
I second that. I had Yaris hybrid from Toyota and the biggest problem with it was rust in brakes. As the car typically engaged regenerative braking charging the battery there was too little heat in the brakes. That lead to accumulation of moisture and rust. After Toyota replaced the brakes the second time within 3 years they strongly advise to brake really hard once each few days. There was zero other problems.