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For reasons I've never understood, many Americans seem fixated on viewing poverty and homelessness as MORAL failures, which deserve punishment.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> For reasons I've never understood, many Americans seem fixated on viewing poverty and homelessness as MORAL failures, which deserve punishment. I think you slightly misstate it: they view poverty and homelessness as an outward evidence of moral failures (particularly, an insufficient work ethic) and (often, though this view is sometimes found divorced from religious judgement today) divine disfavor, not as moral failures in themselves. This has been traced back (both by people who view this attitude positively and by those who view it negatively) to various elements of theology of various strains of Protestantism that shaped American culture, particularly the Puritan concept of “visible saints” whose outward signs were wholesome living and material success.
- gt_ 9y ago
  It sure seems that way but we also see the same tendencies in many other disconnected cultures. It’s widely associated with consumerism. Do you think that’s a misconception? I don’t. I am really far from being an expert but I grew up around a lot of I think was protestantism aftermath. I get the impression Puritanism was a culture founded on demonizing symbolism by way of different symbolism, which making it ripe for commercialism thanks to simplistic abstractions of pride and honor and whatnot. Protestantism/Puritanism in the US seems like it was an optimized for agrarian life, which from my POV sounds pretty dismal. It was latent with judgement but not irreverent to social commitment; in many ways the opposite. I think it’s nature made it particularly vulnerable to consumerism in so many awkward ways. I think the stubborn social roles have persisted to an extent because they are still serving the existential purposes they originally served. Something many don’t realize is these tendencies are only amplified under the pressures of poverty. It looks like a paradox from the outside but on the inside, it’s a psychological survival tactic, which I relate to the isolation and precarity of agrarianism. But I can’t imagine it being so incredulous if it were not exploited and reinforced in consumer culture, ridiculous pop politics and advertising. I might be wrong about some of this. It’s been a difficult subject to learn about.
- cmurf 9y ago
  The book of Job really should have never allowed prosperity theology to prosper, and should be a lesson why it's absurd.
otakucode 9y ago
It stems from the Protestant Work Ethic and religion more generally. One of the biggest sticking points, if not the single biggest, between rational humanism and religious viewpoints is the place of suffering in the world. Rational humanists view suffering as negative, and something to be avoided, alleviated, and prevented, hopefully to be eliminated. The religious view suffering as purposeful, as bearing meaning, and of a potential way others might be driven, out of stark desperation, into the arms of their religion. The Protestant Work Ethic measures a persons virtue by how much suffering they endure in their work. The more poorly paid the work is, and the greater the suffering it causes, the more moral the worker. Desire for respite is vice. Desire for pay based on the value of the work being done is greed. Desire itself is far more immoral than any suffering inflicted, and something for which forgiveness should be sought.
- gt_ 9y ago
  I def don’t think your point is wrong, but doesn’t it fall far short of explaining the multi-cultural libertarian extremism we are seeing today?
  - otakucode 9y ago
    My comment was replying to the wondering over why so many in the USA in modern times see poverty and homelessness as moral failures to be punished. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "multi-cultural libertarian extremism," whatever you imagine that to be.
- naveen99 9y ago
  Is the desire to inflict suffering worse than actually inflicting suffering ? Interesting !
  - otakucode 9y ago
    I was not speaking of inflicting suffering, but of experiencing it. Views on inflicting suffering and ethics, of course, are affected by a mindset which places value on suffering. It leads to things like the church opposing development of vaccines, of which they have always been among the staunchest opponents. Even as recently as the 1990s, the chaplain of the CDC in the US publicly stated that he would actively fight against the development of any kind of vaccine for HIV. Luckily I don't think he really had much influence in deciding what was to be researched or developed. But it is also quite easy to tell one's self that any suffering caused might not be all bad and might even be part of some greater plan if one considers experiencing suffering to have inherent value.
gumby 9y ago
Apart from the Weberian Protestant Work Ethic mentioned in other comments, it's also a consequence of the converse of what you wrote, to whit: "My success is a result of my efforts (in isolation) and thus if you are unsuccessful it must be due to your poor efforts". In other words, you don't want to believe that someone else's misfortune might not be (only) the result of their actions, else it calls your own belief about your success into question. This is why Obama's seemingly unremarkable comments in 2016 about how we all depend on the roads and the work of others offended so many people. Myself it seems blindingly obvious that I was lucky to be born in a rich country, to have moved to another rich country (USA) and have the benefit of huge investments (physical, moral and financial) by others.
brutal_chaos 9y ago
My understanding is this belief is due to Prosperity theology: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
DoreenMichele 9y ago
It absolves them of responsibility for the problem and makes them feel like they are exempt from being at risk of homelessness. Since they aren't currently homeless themselves, this is proof in their minds that they aren't guilty enough to ever be homeless. It's a convenient means to opt out of addressing social ills while simultaneously not feeling like that choice might come back to bite them in the butt someday. More succinctly: "It is your fault for being a bad person. Society didn't do this to you. Not my problem."
lurquer 9y ago
So true. I wish more people had progressive and liberal views towards the matter. Like in the Bay Area... probably the most progressive (and wealthiest) place in the U.S. It's population is comparable to Finland's. And, like Finland, there is virtually no homelessness. Closest thing to Utopia you'll find in the U.S. We should look to it as the example for the rest of the country.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> For reasons I've never understood, many Americans seem fixated on viewing poverty and homelessness as MORAL failures, which deserve punishment. I think you slightly misstate it: they view poverty and homelessness as an outward evidence of moral failures (particularly, an insufficient work ethic) and (often, though this view is sometimes found divorced from religious judgement today) divine disfavor, not as moral failures in themselves. This has been traced back (both by people who view this attitude positively and by those who view it negatively) to various elements of theology of various strains of Protestantism that shaped American culture, particularly the Puritan concept of “visible saints” whose outward signs were wholesome living and material success.

gt_ 9y ago
It sure seems that way but we also see the same tendencies in many other disconnected cultures. It’s widely associated with consumerism. Do you think that’s a misconception? I don’t. I am really far from being an expert but I grew up around a lot of I think was protestantism aftermath. I get the impression Puritanism was a culture founded on demonizing symbolism by way of different symbolism, which making it ripe for commercialism thanks to simplistic abstractions of pride and honor and whatnot. Protestantism/Puritanism in the US seems like it was an optimized for agrarian life, which from my POV sounds pretty dismal. It was latent with judgement but not irreverent to social commitment; in many ways the opposite. I think it’s nature made it particularly vulnerable to consumerism in so many awkward ways. I think the stubborn social roles have persisted to an extent because they are still serving the existential purposes they originally served. Something many don’t realize is these tendencies are only amplified under the pressures of poverty. It looks like a paradox from the outside but on the inside, it’s a psychological survival tactic, which I relate to the isolation and precarity of agrarianism. But I can’t imagine it being so incredulous if it were not exploited and reinforced in consumer culture, ridiculous pop politics and advertising. I might be wrong about some of this. It’s been a difficult subject to learn about.
cmurf 9y ago
The book of Job really should have never allowed prosperity theology to prosper, and should be a lesson why it's absurd.

otakucode 9y ago

It stems from the Protestant Work Ethic and religion more generally. One of the biggest sticking points, if not the single biggest, between rational humanism and religious viewpoints is the place of suffering in the world. Rational humanists view suffering as negative, and something to be avoided, alleviated, and prevented, hopefully to be eliminated. The religious view suffering as purposeful, as bearing meaning, and of a potential way others might be driven, out of stark desperation, into the arms of their religion. The Protestant Work Ethic measures a persons virtue by how much suffering they endure in their work. The more poorly paid the work is, and the greater the suffering it causes, the more moral the worker. Desire for respite is vice. Desire for pay based on the value of the work being done is greed. Desire itself is far more immoral than any suffering inflicted, and something for which forgiveness should be sought.

gt_ 9y ago
I def don’t think your point is wrong, but doesn’t it fall far short of explaining the multi-cultural libertarian extremism we are seeing today?
- otakucode 9y ago
  My comment was replying to the wondering over why so many in the USA in modern times see poverty and homelessness as moral failures to be punished. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "multi-cultural libertarian extremism," whatever you imagine that to be.
naveen99 9y ago
Is the desire to inflict suffering worse than actually inflicting suffering ? Interesting !
- otakucode 9y ago
  I was not speaking of inflicting suffering, but of experiencing it. Views on inflicting suffering and ethics, of course, are affected by a mindset which places value on suffering. It leads to things like the church opposing development of vaccines, of which they have always been among the staunchest opponents. Even as recently as the 1990s, the chaplain of the CDC in the US publicly stated that he would actively fight against the development of any kind of vaccine for HIV. Luckily I don't think he really had much influence in deciding what was to be researched or developed. But it is also quite easy to tell one's self that any suffering caused might not be all bad and might even be part of some greater plan if one considers experiencing suffering to have inherent value.

gumby 9y ago

Apart from the Weberian Protestant Work Ethic mentioned in other comments, it's also a consequence of the converse of what you wrote, to whit: "My success is a result of my efforts (in isolation) and thus if you are unsuccessful it must be due to your poor efforts". In other words, you don't want to believe that someone else's misfortune might not be (only) the result of their actions, else it calls your own belief about your success into question. This is why Obama's seemingly unremarkable comments in 2016 about how we all depend on the roads and the work of others offended so many people. Myself it seems blindingly obvious that I was lucky to be born in a rich country, to have moved to another rich country (USA) and have the benefit of huge investments (physical, moral and financial) by others.

brutal_chaos 9y ago

My understanding is this belief is due to Prosperity theology: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

DoreenMichele 9y ago

It absolves them of responsibility for the problem and makes them feel like they are exempt from being at risk of homelessness. Since they aren't currently homeless themselves, this is proof in their minds that they aren't guilty enough to ever be homeless. It's a convenient means to opt out of addressing social ills while simultaneously not feeling like that choice might come back to bite them in the butt someday. More succinctly: "It is your fault for being a bad person. Society didn't do this to you. Not my problem."

lurquer 9y ago

So true. I wish more people had progressive and liberal views towards the matter. Like in the Bay Area... probably the most progressive (and wealthiest) place in the U.S. It's population is comparable to Finland's. And, like Finland, there is virtually no homelessness. Closest thing to Utopia you'll find in the U.S. We should look to it as the example for the rest of the country.