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> the theory that we're actually living in a simulation, ... It's basically Creationism in modern form. It's not even modern. It is basically Plato's Cave, whi

by vog 9y ago

> the theory that we're actually living in a simulation, ... It's basically Creationism in modern form. It's not even modern. It is basically Plato's Cave, which is classic Greek philosophy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave The religious touch of that idea did not become popular until the movie "The Matrix", which originally had allusions to many different religions, but specialized to Christianity / Creationism with the second and especially the third movie "The Matrix Revolutions".

sjburt 9y ago
That is not the meaning of the Allegory of the Cave at all! The metaphor is that human experience is limited by our senses (like living in the cave) and so to understand eternal, absolute truths you need to use pure reason (leaving the cave), not experience.
- deleted 9y ago
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- vog 9y ago
  Not sure what you argue against, but exactly that aspect, "human experience is limited by our senses", means that everything could be a simulation. Plato named those "shadows", but that's only because people weren't used to good simulation technologies back then. Today we have 3D cinemas, flight simulators, VR headsets, etc. But if you still don't like that example, here's another historic example of a philosopher who published the idea that everything could be a simulation. The evil daemon by René Descartes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon So my point still stands: The idea that everything might be a simulation is as old as humanity. It is neither modern nor based on creationism.
  - apotheothesomai 9y ago
    Plato's shadows have absolutely nothing to do with living in a simulation. He was talking about degrees of true knowledge and their alignment with his idea of a multi-layered existence. No multi-layered metaphysical construct in the ancient world discussed simulations. There isn't even a vocabulary that could describe an abstract simulation rather concrete reenactment, like drama or a physical model. Some ancient religions spoke of the physical world as an illusion, but that too does not mean anything like a simulation. A simulation is a virtual reality created by a higher intelligence in a real-world environment with great real-world power. Plato's forms weren't discussed as beings who did anything, and in the end were just reifications of predicates. Descartes' skepticism is the foremost example of a simulation issue, but in addition to the great flaws in his arguments in the Discourses, saying you can't absolutely prove that your senses are not an elaborate deception is no indication that it is. Profound ignorance and misunderstanding of philosophy is, for me, the most salient feature of the latest discourse on world-as-simulation. 2 weeks of an intro to philosophy college course would correct most peoples' thoughts on the matter, as examining Descartes is the most basic first step in learning philosophy.

by vog 9y ago

sjburt 9y ago

That is not the meaning of the Allegory of the Cave at all! The metaphor is that human experience is limited by our senses (like living in the cave) and so to understand eternal, absolute truths you need to use pure reason (leaving the cave), not experience.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vog 9y ago
Not sure what you argue against, but exactly that aspect, "human experience is limited by our senses", means that everything could be a simulation. Plato named those "shadows", but that's only because people weren't used to good simulation technologies back then. Today we have 3D cinemas, flight simulators, VR headsets, etc. But if you still don't like that example, here's another historic example of a philosopher who published the idea that everything could be a simulation. The evil daemon by René Descartes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon So my point still stands: The idea that everything might be a simulation is as old as humanity. It is neither modern nor based on creationism.
- apotheothesomai 9y ago
  Plato's shadows have absolutely nothing to do with living in a simulation. He was talking about degrees of true knowledge and their alignment with his idea of a multi-layered existence. No multi-layered metaphysical construct in the ancient world discussed simulations. There isn't even a vocabulary that could describe an abstract simulation rather concrete reenactment, like drama or a physical model. Some ancient religions spoke of the physical world as an illusion, but that too does not mean anything like a simulation. A simulation is a virtual reality created by a higher intelligence in a real-world environment with great real-world power. Plato's forms weren't discussed as beings who did anything, and in the end were just reifications of predicates. Descartes' skepticism is the foremost example of a simulation issue, but in addition to the great flaws in his arguments in the Discourses, saying you can't absolutely prove that your senses are not an elaborate deception is no indication that it is. Profound ignorance and misunderstanding of philosophy is, for me, the most salient feature of the latest discourse on world-as-simulation. 2 weeks of an intro to philosophy college course would correct most peoples' thoughts on the matter, as examining Descartes is the most basic first step in learning philosophy.