6 ms·

You would have probably been against the American Revolutionary War then? Meh, let's let the British tax us. They're big and powerful. They're the Government.

by nbdev 9y ago

You would have probably been against the American Revolutionary War then? Meh, let's let the British tax us. They're big and powerful. They're the Government. And what about something like Vietnam? Who won that one? And even if you're right, that the US government is just that big and bad. What if half the military defects and joins the revolt? People have the right to defend themselves, and must be trusted to do so. Otherwise you get something like England. Say the wrong thing and you go to jail. The 2nd Amendment keeps the government in check. Eventually, given enough time, it will need checking.

Mononokay 9y ago
The Brits weren't actually that far ahead of the civs in the ARWar, it was mostly a numbers issue, not a tech issue. Vietnam wasn't on US soil, home-base would be infinitely cheaper. > And even if you're right, that the US government is just that big and bad. What if half the military defects and joins the revolt? The higher up they are the more nonexistant that chance gets, and the higher up you are the more likely it is that you have a kill-switch to any devices that can be used against the nation. > People have the right to defend themselves, and must be trusted to do so. Otherwise you get something like England. Say the wrong thing and you go to jail. The 2nd Amendment keeps the government in check. Eventually, given enough time, it will need checking. Actually, you have the US. People have been arrested for bible burning, [1] promoting Communistic views, [2] Japanese Internment Camps, [3] and more. It's absolutely anti-democratic, but the 2A supporters never will speak against these practices. [0] http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150715-killer-robots-the-soldiers-that-never-sleep http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150715-killer-robots-the-s... [1] http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/23/bible-burning-incident-leads-to-charges-for-pennsylvania-woman.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/23/bible-burning-incident-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act_trials_of_Communist_Party_leaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act_trials_of_Communist_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America...
- nbdev 9y ago
  I don't think it's fair or accurate to say folks wouldn't speak out against those things. Your argument is that people shouldn't have guns because we probably couldn't beat the government. I'll take my fighting chance. It's better to die free.
jjjensen90 9y ago
Generally I am against loss of human life, be it in war or gun violence, but I'm not sure how I would have felt at the time of the Revolution, and I'm not sure you do either. But really, that is just a weak strawman. The US government/military is MANY orders of magnitude more powerful than the British vs the colonists. The US military could nuke every single state capital in a few minutes, for example. If you take the argument to it's logical conclusion, we should have legal access to weapons equivalent to that of the military, which we already definitely do not. I am just pointing out that an untrained populace armed with even military-style assault weapons is really just laughable if your enemy is the largest military that has ever existed with technology and weapons that could annihilate humanity. I just don't agree that it is productive to use that as an excuse against thoughtful regulation in the face of the actual, currently occuring epidemic of gun violence (accidents, suicides, school shootings, domestic violence, gang violence, etc) where people are really losing their lives.
- reitanqild 9y ago
  > I am just pointing out that an untrained populace armed with even military-style assault weapons is really just laughable if your enemy is the largest military that has ever existed with technology and weapons that could annihilate humanity. Tell that to the Nazis. They were the military superpower of their time. Except for the nuclear option every armed enemy can tie up >10 soldiers if they are going to try to keep people alive for slave labour/selective genocide/etc. Edit: my point is that the Nazis had a giant technological advantage as well as a giant army and even powerful allies and still they were vulnerable to all kinds of sting operations. Edit2: a little more context.
  - watwut 9y ago
    Third reich army was trained. It was army. This is not an example of "untrained populace". This is example of well trained army from country with great military tradition. The fight against nazi was ultimately won by armies, not by "untrained populace". All in all, this is really odd example.
    - 9y ago

by nbdev 9y ago

Mononokay 9y ago

The Brits weren't actually that far ahead of the civs in the ARWar, it was mostly a numbers issue, not a tech issue. Vietnam wasn't on US soil, home-base would be infinitely cheaper. > And even if you're right, that the US government is just that big and bad. What if half the military defects and joins the revolt? The higher up they are the more nonexistant that chance gets, and the higher up you are the more likely it is that you have a kill-switch to any devices that can be used against the nation. > People have the right to defend themselves, and must be trusted to do so. Otherwise you get something like England. Say the wrong thing and you go to jail. The 2nd Amendment keeps the government in check. Eventually, given enough time, it will need checking. Actually, you have the US. People have been arrested for bible burning, [1] promoting Communistic views, [2] Japanese Internment Camps, [3] and more. It's absolutely anti-democratic, but the 2A supporters never will speak against these practices. [0] http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150715-killer-robots-the-soldiers-that-never-sleep http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150715-killer-robots-the-s... [1] http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/23/bible-burning-incident-leads-to-charges-for-pennsylvania-woman.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/23/bible-burning-incident-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act_trials_of_Communist_Party_leaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_Act_trials_of_Communist_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America...

nbdev 9y ago
I don't think it's fair or accurate to say folks wouldn't speak out against those things. Your argument is that people shouldn't have guns because we probably couldn't beat the government. I'll take my fighting chance. It's better to die free.

jjjensen90 9y ago

Generally I am against loss of human life, be it in war or gun violence, but I'm not sure how I would have felt at the time of the Revolution, and I'm not sure you do either. But really, that is just a weak strawman. The US government/military is MANY orders of magnitude more powerful than the British vs the colonists. The US military could nuke every single state capital in a few minutes, for example. If you take the argument to it's logical conclusion, we should have legal access to weapons equivalent to that of the military, which we already definitely do not. I am just pointing out that an untrained populace armed with even military-style assault weapons is really just laughable if your enemy is the largest military that has ever existed with technology and weapons that could annihilate humanity. I just don't agree that it is productive to use that as an excuse against thoughtful regulation in the face of the actual, currently occuring epidemic of gun violence (accidents, suicides, school shootings, domestic violence, gang violence, etc) where people are really losing their lives.

reitanqild 9y ago
> I am just pointing out that an untrained populace armed with even military-style assault weapons is really just laughable if your enemy is the largest military that has ever existed with technology and weapons that could annihilate humanity. Tell that to the Nazis. They were the military superpower of their time. Except for the nuclear option every armed enemy can tie up >10 soldiers if they are going to try to keep people alive for slave labour/selective genocide/etc. Edit: my point is that the Nazis had a giant technological advantage as well as a giant army and even powerful allies and still they were vulnerable to all kinds of sting operations. Edit2: a little more context.
- watwut 9y ago
  Third reich army was trained. It was army. This is not an example of "untrained populace". This is example of well trained army from country with great military tradition. The fight against nazi was ultimately won by armies, not by "untrained populace". All in all, this is really odd example.
  - 9y ago