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We don't know what Apple does with their data. They might print it out and make paper airplanes with it. They might use it to test their backups. And yes, they

We don't know what Apple does with their data. They might print it out and make paper airplanes with it. They might use it to test their backups. And yes, they even might sell it. Or, they may do nothing with it at all. We just don't know. I'm not accusing them of misusing our data, but I do know that they have, in the past, chosen to do something that looks like they are disregarding their user's privacy in order to make a buck (https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-moving-icloud-encryption-keys-to-china-for-china-based-users/ https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-moving-icloud-encryption-key...). And they can set up their systems in a way that ensures they aren't violating our privacy or trust, but they choose not to do that. That to me, is very suspicious. I do agree that they seem like the best tech giant for user privacy, but that is a super low bar. Just because they are "the best", doesn't mean they are good at it.

walterbell 9y ago
Apple devices can be used without iCloud.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  Can it work without any connections to apple? It's not just iCloud.
  - grzm 9y ago
    If you want software updates, you can get those through your computer rather than connecting to Apple directly. I'm not sure what would be involved in opting out of Apple's iMessage system. Edit to add: looks like that's an option as well in the settings. (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569) Are you asking rhetorically? For someone who repeatedly, adamantly, and assuredly posts about Apple and security, I'd be surprised if you don't already know the answer to your question.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      I mean most of the apps, like Maps, Email, GPS, etc. And I don't know the answer to that, because I haven't used an Apple product since the original iPhone. If I'm misunderstanding how they work, then, please, inform me as to what I'm missing. I'm very willing to admit I was mistaken if they don't work the way I think they do. I try to keep up with the basics of how they work, I have my friends show me things, etc. But I in no way want to paint myself as an Apple expert.
      - grzm 9y ago
        Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio.
        CaptSpify 9y ago
        > Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. I don't have to be a mechanic to know when a car is broken, just like I don't have to know how all of Apple's software works to know that they don't actually value privacy. Please, prove me wrong. I'd love it if Apple actually put their money where their mouth is. Until then, I know enough about their stack to know that they don't build it in a way that ensures privacy. > You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. And? I can anticipate objections as to any argument. That doesn't change the validity of either side. I don't think I get what you mean by this. > It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Once those arguments become invalid, I'll stop. If I'm saying something that isn't true, please point it out. Until then, I'll will proudly correct the lie that "Apple cares about privacy". I'm sorry that the truth is tedious to you, but there's not much that I can do about that. > Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio. But they could build their systems so that I don't have to go through Apple to use their app, just in the same way that email works. They choose not to. My point is that, until they design their systems so that I can use all of the standard functionality without going through their servers, they aren't taking privacy seriously.
  - walterbell 9y ago
    If you want to block all connections to Apple, configure an always-on VPN to intercept all network traffic, then use a firewall to stop all Apple connections. If you want to minimize connections to Apple, don't use Apple apps or services. Wire replaces iMessage. 2doapp replaces Notes.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      And if Apple wanted to prove that they actually care about privacy, they would design their apps in a way that I wouldn't have to connect to their servers in any way. This is true even when talking about their apps and services.
      - walterbell 9y ago
        Can you recommend a vendor who meets these criteria?
        CaptSpify 9y ago
        There are a ton of them. Look at any open-source email/dav/webserver/etc projects. As an example: Dovecot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovecot_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovecot_(software)) doesn't require me to connect to their servers for anything. They have no idea what I'm doing with my data, and they've designed their software so that they can't violate my privacy.
        Karunamon 9y ago
        FOSS projects are not "vendors". Nobody sells a smartphone that meets the criteria described.
        detaro 9y ago
        You can buy Android phones like the Fairphone where removing the Google services is officially supported, that comes pretty close.
- kungtotte 9y ago
  Yes, just like you can use a car without gas.
  - grzm 9y ago
    Not true. Even with the latest iOS 11, iCloud is opt-in, and not required. https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/do-you-have-to-use-icloud-services-when-you-upgrade-to-ios-11.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/d... Clearly, there are some features that rely on iCloud, but you can choose not to use those features and still have a functioning device.
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Incorrect. You can use apps which have other synchronization mechanisms, including competitors to iCloud. With "document provider" apps, you can use SSH as a transport mechanism for files.

walterbell 9y ago

Apple devices can be used without iCloud.

CaptSpify 9y ago
Can it work without any connections to apple? It's not just iCloud.
- grzm 9y ago
  If you want software updates, you can get those through your computer rather than connecting to Apple directly. I'm not sure what would be involved in opting out of Apple's iMessage system. Edit to add: looks like that's an option as well in the settings. (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6430569) Are you asking rhetorically? For someone who repeatedly, adamantly, and assuredly posts about Apple and security, I'd be surprised if you don't already know the answer to your question.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    I mean most of the apps, like Maps, Email, GPS, etc. And I don't know the answer to that, because I haven't used an Apple product since the original iPhone. If I'm misunderstanding how they work, then, please, inform me as to what I'm missing. I'm very willing to admit I was mistaken if they don't work the way I think they do. I try to keep up with the basics of how they work, I have my friends show me things, etc. But I in no way want to paint myself as an Apple expert.
    - grzm 9y ago
      Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio.
      - CaptSpify 9y ago
        > Then perhaps dial back the anti-Apple rhetoric, or at least post something more substantial and thoughtful when you do. I don't have to be a mechanic to know when a car is broken, just like I don't have to know how all of Apple's software works to know that they don't actually value privacy. Please, prove me wrong. I'd love it if Apple actually put their money where their mouth is. Until then, I know enough about their stack to know that they don't build it in a way that ensures privacy. > You’ve seen enough responses from people to anticipate objections. And? I can anticipate objections as to any argument. That doesn't change the validity of either side. I don't think I get what you mean by this. > It’s tedious and boring to see the same arguments again and again. Once those arguments become invalid, I'll stop. If I'm saying something that isn't true, please point it out. Until then, I'll will proudly correct the lie that "Apple cares about privacy". I'm sorry that the truth is tedious to you, but there's not much that I can do about that. > Mail is a mail client: if you use an Apple domain, you’ll use their servers. If not, then not. And you don’t need to use the built-in mail client. If you use Apple Maps, yeah, you’re using their service. You can use Google Maps or Waze or other alternatives if you choose. GPS is a radio: it doesn’t involve any service provider other than the satellites it receives information from, same as any other GPS radio. But they could build their systems so that I don't have to go through Apple to use their app, just in the same way that email works. They choose not to. My point is that, until they design their systems so that I can use all of the standard functionality without going through their servers, they aren't taking privacy seriously.
- walterbell 9y ago
  If you want to block all connections to Apple, configure an always-on VPN to intercept all network traffic, then use a firewall to stop all Apple connections. If you want to minimize connections to Apple, don't use Apple apps or services. Wire replaces iMessage. 2doapp replaces Notes.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    And if Apple wanted to prove that they actually care about privacy, they would design their apps in a way that I wouldn't have to connect to their servers in any way. This is true even when talking about their apps and services.
    - walterbell 9y ago
      Can you recommend a vendor who meets these criteria?
      - CaptSpify 9y ago
        There are a ton of them. Look at any open-source email/dav/webserver/etc projects. As an example: Dovecot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovecot_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovecot_(software)) doesn't require me to connect to their servers for anything. They have no idea what I'm doing with my data, and they've designed their software so that they can't violate my privacy.
        Karunamon 9y ago
        FOSS projects are not "vendors". Nobody sells a smartphone that meets the criteria described.
        detaro 9y ago
        You can buy Android phones like the Fairphone where removing the Google services is officially supported, that comes pretty close.
kungtotte 9y ago
Yes, just like you can use a car without gas.
- grzm 9y ago
  Not true. Even with the latest iOS 11, iCloud is opt-in, and not required. https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/do-you-have-to-use-icloud-services-when-you-upgrade-to-ios-11.html https://www.macworld.com/article/3252170/data-center-cloud/d... Clearly, there are some features that rely on iCloud, but you can choose not to use those features and still have a functioning device.
- walterbell 9y ago
  Incorrect. You can use apps which have other synchronization mechanisms, including competitors to iCloud. With "document provider" apps, you can use SSH as a transport mechanism for files.