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In the USA thank god we still have the right to offend, but clearly this is something which has been lost to the UK and appears to becoming weaponized to surpre

In the USA thank god we still have the right to offend, but clearly this is something which has been lost to the UK and appears to becoming weaponized to surpress political activism as well (see recent stories of Tommy Robinson at Speakers Corner). You can’t lose what you never had, and the UK doesn’t have the 1st amendment. They don’t have freedom of speech and expression (at least not In such absolute terms) and never have. For example, super-injunctions and (I shit you not) hyper-injunctions.

olliej 9y ago
Ludicrous injunctions!
cjrp 9y ago
> In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention, and the guarantee of freedom of expression it contains in Article 10, into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act But as you said, there are lots of exceptions and exclusions. Don't these exist for the 1st amendment as well though, e.g. shouting fire in a theatre?
- portofcall 9y ago
  They exist in two arenas, both (theoretically) subject to strict judicial oversight. The first as you reference is public safety, which includes inciting to violence, and other classic examples. The second is a bit murkier: national security. That said, something like a super injunction for a celebrity’s sex life would be flat-out impossible and unconstitutional.
ralusek 9y ago
That's a strange way to think of it, that the state can supply that as a right. The people of the UK, and anywhere, have the freedom to say anything they'd like...if the state intervenes, they are removing the individual's existing liberty to do so. The first amendment is not a right provided to the people, but rather a restriction placed on the state, removing its own capability to impede upon an inherent liberty. I never think it's a good idea to think of a state as affording you a liberty which you had to begin with.
- zaroth 9y ago
  In fact this is exactly the argument many of the framers had against the bill of rights — that they were so natural and inherently obviously not to be infringed that listing a few of them might make people think anything that might have been left out was not in fact a natural right of the people! Can’t say how glad I am they decided it better to put a few key ones down on paper. Imagine if “they are so natural as to go unwritten” had won the day?

olliej 9y ago

Ludicrous injunctions!

cjrp 9y ago

> In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention, and the guarantee of freedom of expression it contains in Article 10, into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act But as you said, there are lots of exceptions and exclusions. Don't these exist for the 1st amendment as well though, e.g. shouting fire in a theatre?

portofcall 9y ago
They exist in two arenas, both (theoretically) subject to strict judicial oversight. The first as you reference is public safety, which includes inciting to violence, and other classic examples. The second is a bit murkier: national security. That said, something like a super injunction for a celebrity’s sex life would be flat-out impossible and unconstitutional.

ralusek 9y ago

That's a strange way to think of it, that the state can supply that as a right. The people of the UK, and anywhere, have the freedom to say anything they'd like...if the state intervenes, they are removing the individual's existing liberty to do so. The first amendment is not a right provided to the people, but rather a restriction placed on the state, removing its own capability to impede upon an inherent liberty. I never think it's a good idea to think of a state as affording you a liberty which you had to begin with.

zaroth 9y ago
In fact this is exactly the argument many of the framers had against the bill of rights — that they were so natural and inherently obviously not to be infringed that listing a few of them might make people think anything that might have been left out was not in fact a natural right of the people! Can’t say how glad I am they decided it better to put a few key ones down on paper. Imagine if “they are so natural as to go unwritten” had won the day?