3 ms·

And conservatism. It is hard to categorize them easly, but they don't seem to be center of political scene in my opinon.

by ergo14 9y ago

baq 9y ago
They're national socialists. They don't like aliens, want to be in control of everything they deem important and are perfectly willing to break the rule of law for the good of society. They gave everyone with more than one child free money. They also call everything 'national' instead of 'public'. They think that the EU is a hindrance and an enemy, as if Putin didn't exist (that the part I can't understand the most.)
- lainga 9y ago
  Why bring up Putin? It is possible to be in NATO but not the EU.
  - baq 9y ago
    Because there's no third option. It's either the EU or Russia; there's no independent in-between possible. NATO won't help with a self-inflicted economic and geographic squeeze.
- bobthechef 9y ago
  You're parroting an extremely twisted line touted by some media sources. You must realize how absurd it is to call them national socialists given the accepted meaning of that term. It's actually quite clownish. W.r.t. aliens, that's nonsense. Even the article mentions Ukrainian immigration. For the record, Poland took in what were effectively ~1 million Ukrainian refugees and immigrants because of, you know, that war still being waged by Russia that the West keeps forgetting about. Germany and other Western countries didn't take in any Ukrainians. Poland refused to take in migrants during the migrant crisis for a number of reasons, including: refusal to acquiesce to Merkel's dictates after having she had utterly bungled that affair (most migrants aren't even Syrian refugees); migrants who had arrived in Poland and elsewhere eventually left and moved to Germany or Sweden anyway; Poland is largely homogeneous and having witnessed cultural-religious friction in the West decided not to subject itself to that experiment esp. given the precarious geopolitical place the country occupies; Poland diverts significant funds to efforts on Syrian soil to help Syrians on the ground; Poland is already in the Schengen zone and so what's this business with no aliens? > perfectly willing to break the rule of law for the good of society The current judiciary is full of law-breaking and less than savory people with ties to the old Communist establishment. That whole affair with the Tribunal (a Communist invention instituted by Jaruzelski during martial law to protect Communists, basically) is more complex. Every party had put its own candidates in and the previous ruling party, the Civic Platform, just before office, had exploited incoherent and unsatisfiable laws to create a situation that could only be resolved it seems the way it had been. Needless to say, it is far more complex than the way you claim it is. There is a general problem with Polish laws looking like Swiss cheese and issues with the Polish constitution. And even if it were the case that the rule of law was being violated for "the good of society", then perhaps there's a problem with the system if it needs to be violated to make necessary changes? > They gave everyone with more than one child free money. Not everyone agrees with that policy, but what is so wrong with it that you had to mention it as if it were an evil thing? The goal is to help slow or counteract the negative birth rate of the country. Europe in general is facing serious demographic issues. "Importing" large numbers of people from totally different cultures is not a great solution (see Germany, France). > They also call everything 'national' instead of 'public'. No, they don't. And when they do, so what? That's how state-owned institutions and programs are often labelled in Poland and elsewhere outside the US. The National Theatre, the Polish National Opera, the National Institute of Remembrance. What a silly grievance. > They think that the EU is a hindrance and an enemy, as if Putin didn't exist (that the part I can't understand the most.) They don't have issues with the European Union as such. They have issues with some ways the EU operates today and the way it relates to the countries of the former Eastern bloc. And who do you think makes up a good chunk of "Poland's owners" in this article? Hint: they're on the other side of "the river" and they own 80% of the Polish media. The current party, if you'll recall, signed the Lisbon Treaty in 2007. And w.r.t., Putin, Poland, and this party, are more keenly aware of the threat Putin poses than anyone, hence being one of very few countries actually meeting NATO defense quotas, hence trying to increase NATO presence in the region, hence pushing for the Three Seas Initiative with American support, hence previous attempts at installing a missile shield. The EU has done little to counter Putin. The West shows little solidarity with the countries most threatened by Putin. For example, Germany continues to carry on with its backroom deals and gas pipelines circumventing Poland, even though it would be cheaper to run the pipeline through Poland instead of through the Baltic. So, I really have no idea what you're talking about.
  - seba_dos1 9y ago
    As somebody who followed closely some of the issues mentioned here, especially the Tribunal one, seeing the legislative procedures being fearlessly broken and actually listening to the parliamentary debates, being able to pin-point the carefully crafted manipulative messages that weren't even internally coherent as soon as you gave them more attention than usual media coverage does, I can see you mindlessly repeating all this stuff right now. Try to diversify your opinion, read various sources, and especially don't buy into the completely stupid "they tried to do bad stuff and failed, so we'll now successfully do twice as bad stuff as they wanted to, cause we're in power now and nobody will stop us and hey, they were baddies too" argument.
  - ergo14 9y ago
    > a Communist invention instituted by Jaruzelski during martial law to protect Communists "W okresie PRL ustanowienie sądu konstytucyjnego stało się postulatem formułowanym przez wiele środowisk w okresie przełomu politycznego lat 1980–1981[2]. Powołania TK domagała się m.in. adwokatura oraz Niezależny Samorządny Związek Zawodowy „Solidarność”. " Yes, someone does not have the idea what they are talking about, the Tribunal was established because Solidarity movement wanted it. A lot of the information you posted is at least inaccurate to high degree and can be verified easily. > The current judiciary is full of law-breaking and less than savory people with ties to the old Communist establishment. Can you name at least a few high profile members of judicary that would fit this description? I can name a few in PIS Kryże, Piotrowicz (you know the communist era prosecutor that now reforms law in Poland... oh the irony) - even people like Cenckiewicz the historian clearly state that they should not be there. > And even if it were the case that the rule of law was being violated for "the good of society", then perhaps there's a problem with the system if it needs to be violated to make necessary changes. I agree, can you point me to the parts of the laws that will improve the system for the citizens instead of currently ruling party?
bobthechef 9y ago
One of the sources Morawiecki draws from is Catholic social teaching, which, as can be expected, is not particularly friendly toward morally bankrupt, exploitative, and unrestrained incarnations of capitalism. So, really, opposition to that variety of destructive capitalism is not a left/right wing issue as it is erroneously often thought of in the United States. (The Church is also opposed to socialism as an inherently perverse model, but it is not categorically opposed to some government social programs, though I would suspect they are viewed as less than idea, preferring saner business practices and charity).

And conservatism. It is hard to categorize them easly, but they don't seem to be center of political scene in my opinon.

by ergo14 9y ago

And conservatism. It is hard to categorize them easly, but they don't seem to be center of political scene in my opinon.

baq 9y ago

They're national socialists. They don't like aliens, want to be in control of everything they deem important and are perfectly willing to break the rule of law for the good of society. They gave everyone with more than one child free money. They also call everything 'national' instead of 'public'. They think that the EU is a hindrance and an enemy, as if Putin didn't exist (that the part I can't understand the most.)

lainga 9y ago
Why bring up Putin? It is possible to be in NATO but not the EU.
- baq 9y ago
  Because there's no third option. It's either the EU or Russia; there's no independent in-between possible. NATO won't help with a self-inflicted economic and geographic squeeze.
bobthechef 9y ago
You're parroting an extremely twisted line touted by some media sources. You must realize how absurd it is to call them national socialists given the accepted meaning of that term. It's actually quite clownish. W.r.t. aliens, that's nonsense. Even the article mentions Ukrainian immigration. For the record, Poland took in what were effectively ~1 million Ukrainian refugees and immigrants because of, you know, that war still being waged by Russia that the West keeps forgetting about. Germany and other Western countries didn't take in any Ukrainians. Poland refused to take in migrants during the migrant crisis for a number of reasons, including: refusal to acquiesce to Merkel's dictates after having she had utterly bungled that affair (most migrants aren't even Syrian refugees); migrants who had arrived in Poland and elsewhere eventually left and moved to Germany or Sweden anyway; Poland is largely homogeneous and having witnessed cultural-religious friction in the West decided not to subject itself to that experiment esp. given the precarious geopolitical place the country occupies; Poland diverts significant funds to efforts on Syrian soil to help Syrians on the ground; Poland is already in the Schengen zone and so what's this business with no aliens? > perfectly willing to break the rule of law for the good of society The current judiciary is full of law-breaking and less than savory people with ties to the old Communist establishment. That whole affair with the Tribunal (a Communist invention instituted by Jaruzelski during martial law to protect Communists, basically) is more complex. Every party had put its own candidates in and the previous ruling party, the Civic Platform, just before office, had exploited incoherent and unsatisfiable laws to create a situation that could only be resolved it seems the way it had been. Needless to say, it is far more complex than the way you claim it is. There is a general problem with Polish laws looking like Swiss cheese and issues with the Polish constitution. And even if it were the case that the rule of law was being violated for "the good of society", then perhaps there's a problem with the system if it needs to be violated to make necessary changes? > They gave everyone with more than one child free money. Not everyone agrees with that policy, but what is so wrong with it that you had to mention it as if it were an evil thing? The goal is to help slow or counteract the negative birth rate of the country. Europe in general is facing serious demographic issues. "Importing" large numbers of people from totally different cultures is not a great solution (see Germany, France). > They also call everything 'national' instead of 'public'. No, they don't. And when they do, so what? That's how state-owned institutions and programs are often labelled in Poland and elsewhere outside the US. The National Theatre, the Polish National Opera, the National Institute of Remembrance. What a silly grievance. > They think that the EU is a hindrance and an enemy, as if Putin didn't exist (that the part I can't understand the most.) They don't have issues with the European Union as such. They have issues with some ways the EU operates today and the way it relates to the countries of the former Eastern bloc. And who do you think makes up a good chunk of "Poland's owners" in this article? Hint: they're on the other side of "the river" and they own 80% of the Polish media. The current party, if you'll recall, signed the Lisbon Treaty in 2007. And w.r.t., Putin, Poland, and this party, are more keenly aware of the threat Putin poses than anyone, hence being one of very few countries actually meeting NATO defense quotas, hence trying to increase NATO presence in the region, hence pushing for the Three Seas Initiative with American support, hence previous attempts at installing a missile shield. The EU has done little to counter Putin. The West shows little solidarity with the countries most threatened by Putin. For example, Germany continues to carry on with its backroom deals and gas pipelines circumventing Poland, even though it would be cheaper to run the pipeline through Poland instead of through the Baltic. So, I really have no idea what you're talking about.
- seba_dos1 9y ago
  As somebody who followed closely some of the issues mentioned here, especially the Tribunal one, seeing the legislative procedures being fearlessly broken and actually listening to the parliamentary debates, being able to pin-point the carefully crafted manipulative messages that weren't even internally coherent as soon as you gave them more attention than usual media coverage does, I can see you mindlessly repeating all this stuff right now. Try to diversify your opinion, read various sources, and especially don't buy into the completely stupid "they tried to do bad stuff and failed, so we'll now successfully do twice as bad stuff as they wanted to, cause we're in power now and nobody will stop us and hey, they were baddies too" argument.
- ergo14 9y ago
  > a Communist invention instituted by Jaruzelski during martial law to protect Communists "W okresie PRL ustanowienie sądu konstytucyjnego stało się postulatem formułowanym przez wiele środowisk w okresie przełomu politycznego lat 1980–1981[2]. Powołania TK domagała się m.in. adwokatura oraz Niezależny Samorządny Związek Zawodowy „Solidarność”. " Yes, someone does not have the idea what they are talking about, the Tribunal was established because Solidarity movement wanted it. A lot of the information you posted is at least inaccurate to high degree and can be verified easily. > The current judiciary is full of law-breaking and less than savory people with ties to the old Communist establishment. Can you name at least a few high profile members of judicary that would fit this description? I can name a few in PIS Kryże, Piotrowicz (you know the communist era prosecutor that now reforms law in Poland... oh the irony) - even people like Cenckiewicz the historian clearly state that they should not be there. > And even if it were the case that the rule of law was being violated for "the good of society", then perhaps there's a problem with the system if it needs to be violated to make necessary changes. I agree, can you point me to the parts of the laws that will improve the system for the citizens instead of currently ruling party?

bobthechef 9y ago

One of the sources Morawiecki draws from is Catholic social teaching, which, as can be expected, is not particularly friendly toward morally bankrupt, exploitative, and unrestrained incarnations of capitalism. So, really, opposition to that variety of destructive capitalism is not a left/right wing issue as it is erroneously often thought of in the United States. (The Church is also opposed to socialism as an inherently perverse model, but it is not categorically opposed to some government social programs, though I would suspect they are viewed as less than idea, preferring saner business practices and charity).