4 ms·

The philosophy behind humanism seems like a decent place to start.

yters 9y ago
There is not much philosophy there. Just assertions for the Christian values of tolerance and valuing human agency, without any justification. But, there is no rational basis for such things in a Darwinian world red in tooth and nail.
- verylittlemeat 9y ago
  There has been a lot of science coming out recently about how in an evolutionary context cooperation is more beneficial in some situations than any idea of individual survival of the fittest. Based on your reaction though with "red in tooth and nail[sic (claw)]" you seem more interested in your own preconceived biases than any good faith argument from science or otherwise.
  - yters 9y ago
    Yes, cooperation is beneficial to the group, but what is beneficial to me is for everyone else to cooperate and for me to take advantage of them. Why would an atheist ever do anything that benefits the group over themselves, if they can get away with it?
    - verylittlemeat 9y ago
      What's stopping you? In theory nothing but in practice many things. Atheists still have to live in the real world. The real world doesn't run on people fearing god it runs on, among other things, laws and reputation. Most people wont steal from you because they don't want to go to jail not because god is watching. Most people don't screw over every person they meet because then they'll get a reputation as a person to not work with. Say you decide to play the long game and "pretend" to be good until you get your chance to betray everyone for your payday. Some might say that's just good old fashioned capitalist business, a system atheists and the god fearing alike participate in.
      - yters 9y ago
        If I didn't believe in right and wrong, I would definitely try to get away with much more. Death and punishment are not a problem. As long as death is quick, there is nothing to fear. There are plenty of instances in our society where godlessness turns into immoral anarchy, such as the inner cities or the upper echelons of Wall Street.
        nugi 9y ago
        Go preach somewgere else. Your arguments make no logical sense without taking your whole odd beliefs as cannon. You literally have nothing to say buy assert your favorite religion started everything good. At least back your conclusions up with logic post-fact.
        yters 9y ago
        Well, let's look at an atheistic country, say the Soviet Union. They certainly had no moral qualms about mass human experimentation and genocide when it suited their purpose. On the other hand, even Islam, the most violent of the big religions, still teaches from the Koran that every person has something divine in them that gives them value. Islam has not conducted killings at the same scale as the atheistic regimes have.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        The Soviet Union may have been atheistic, but whatever problems it had don't stem from your complaint upthread about atheistic persons not having a belief in right and wrong; Leninism is no less an exclusive, total ideology of right and wrong than those associated with theistic systems.
        yters 9y ago
        Exactly. He had a view of right and wrong derived from his atheism, but it was certainly not the correct view. Hence gulags, human experimentation, etc. I know of no atheistic derivation of ethics that is actually moral. They all undermine morality because the human being is nothing special, merely a tool for the ubermensch.

There is not much philosophy there. Just assertions for the Christian values of tolerance and valuing human agency, without any justification. But, there is no rational basis for such things in a Darwinian world red in tooth and nail.

verylittlemeat 9y ago
There has been a lot of science coming out recently about how in an evolutionary context cooperation is more beneficial in some situations than any idea of individual survival of the fittest. Based on your reaction though with "red in tooth and nail[sic (claw)]" you seem more interested in your own preconceived biases than any good faith argument from science or otherwise.
- yters 9y ago
  Yes, cooperation is beneficial to the group, but what is beneficial to me is for everyone else to cooperate and for me to take advantage of them. Why would an atheist ever do anything that benefits the group over themselves, if they can get away with it?
  - verylittlemeat 9y ago
    What's stopping you? In theory nothing but in practice many things. Atheists still have to live in the real world. The real world doesn't run on people fearing god it runs on, among other things, laws and reputation. Most people wont steal from you because they don't want to go to jail not because god is watching. Most people don't screw over every person they meet because then they'll get a reputation as a person to not work with. Say you decide to play the long game and "pretend" to be good until you get your chance to betray everyone for your payday. Some might say that's just good old fashioned capitalist business, a system atheists and the god fearing alike participate in.
    - yters 9y ago
      If I didn't believe in right and wrong, I would definitely try to get away with much more. Death and punishment are not a problem. As long as death is quick, there is nothing to fear. There are plenty of instances in our society where godlessness turns into immoral anarchy, such as the inner cities or the upper echelons of Wall Street.
      - nugi 9y ago
        Go preach somewgere else. Your arguments make no logical sense without taking your whole odd beliefs as cannon. You literally have nothing to say buy assert your favorite religion started everything good. At least back your conclusions up with logic post-fact.
        yters 9y ago
        Well, let's look at an atheistic country, say the Soviet Union. They certainly had no moral qualms about mass human experimentation and genocide when it suited their purpose. On the other hand, even Islam, the most violent of the big religions, still teaches from the Koran that every person has something divine in them that gives them value. Islam has not conducted killings at the same scale as the atheistic regimes have.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        The Soviet Union may have been atheistic, but whatever problems it had don't stem from your complaint upthread about atheistic persons not having a belief in right and wrong; Leninism is no less an exclusive, total ideology of right and wrong than those associated with theistic systems.
        yters 9y ago
        Exactly. He had a view of right and wrong derived from his atheism, but it was certainly not the correct view. Hence gulags, human experimentation, etc. I know of no atheistic derivation of ethics that is actually moral. They all undermine morality because the human being is nothing special, merely a tool for the ubermensch.