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"People can't be free to think for themselves because they'll make stupid decisions" I know you're not making that argument specifically but that's sort of wha

"People can't be free to think for themselves because they'll make stupid decisions" I know you're not making that argument specifically but that's sort of what it boils down to right? That bad systems which focus their power will win out over good systems which don't. It's like the argument that keeps coming up in the China VS USA threads where people worry about the US because it handicaps itself in science with its regulations and concerns over ethics. I don't particularly disagree with what you're saying because it feels true but it should be pointed out that it's an awfully nice excuse for people with power to see themselves as benevolent overlords.

mistermann 9y ago
The more real (and observable today imho) problem is: in general, people aren't really good at, interested in, or have time for thinking deeply and critically, and some things matter, a lot. So if they can't (or won't) think about these things themselves, and you remove a religious rule, it creates a vacuum where anyone or any "-ism" can enter and replace religion's influence on public behavior.
- verylittlemeat 9y ago
  What kinds of religious rules do you feel keep which types of behaviors in check? (the ones you see as most important for society) I'm just curious what you consider, not looking for an argument or debate necessarily.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    In general, honesty and following the rules I think correlates to religion. Religion isn't necessary, but I believe something formal is necessary. I see no reason whatsoever to believe that people are going to each come to similar fairly optimum decisions individually, and plenty of reasons to believe they won't.
- armandososa 9y ago
  It's not the rules, it's about the faith. e.g. If I (honestly) believe that all human beings were made equal in the image of God (whatever that may be) that would affect the way I treat people. Some rules will came out of that belief: like "don't lie" and "don't kill" but, in it's purest form, religion is not about rules, and the fact that people don't know that means that religious institutions have failed.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    That's a fine theory, but to claim you know this with certainty I think is a much larger claim than you realize. What exactly makes humans behave they way they do is extremely complex - some people may behave exactly for the reason you describe, others may not, anyone that says they know for sure is not telling the truth (although that doesn't necessarily mean they're lying).
vowelless 9y ago
I think perhaps in parallel to you point, move towards centralization tends to overpower confederations. Incidentedly, this point is also made in the Federalist papers and I believe Wealth of Nations which argues that centralization leads to stability and robustness. Exclusivity and evangelism helped centralize Christianity in comparison with the pagans.
Balgair 9y ago
I think it's more like: "People don't think through their decisions very well" The OP points out that there are many nations that put in big funding for Islam in the west and around the world. Here in the US, the Mormon church is very similar. Other examples abound. More money means that it is more likely that the local mosque/temple is well funded, has free food, basketball courts, a gym, daycare, counseling services, etc. If the other local centers for religion or other social functions are not as well funded and stocked, it's not hard to see people flocking to the mosque/temple. The proximity will undoubtedly lead to conversions, or at least toleration of the religion. At first this is not so bad, but we all know the more extremist views of many religions can quickly take hold and may degrade women's rights, children's education, healthcare access, and justice decisions (see upstate NY). I am NOT saying this will happen or that any one religion is wholly better; we all have faults.

mistermann 9y ago

The more real (and observable today imho) problem is: in general, people aren't really good at, interested in, or have time for thinking deeply and critically, and some things matter, a lot. So if they can't (or won't) think about these things themselves, and you remove a religious rule, it creates a vacuum where anyone or any "-ism" can enter and replace religion's influence on public behavior.

verylittlemeat 9y ago
What kinds of religious rules do you feel keep which types of behaviors in check? (the ones you see as most important for society) I'm just curious what you consider, not looking for an argument or debate necessarily.
- mistermann 9y ago
  In general, honesty and following the rules I think correlates to religion. Religion isn't necessary, but I believe something formal is necessary. I see no reason whatsoever to believe that people are going to each come to similar fairly optimum decisions individually, and plenty of reasons to believe they won't.
armandososa 9y ago
It's not the rules, it's about the faith. e.g. If I (honestly) believe that all human beings were made equal in the image of God (whatever that may be) that would affect the way I treat people. Some rules will came out of that belief: like "don't lie" and "don't kill" but, in it's purest form, religion is not about rules, and the fact that people don't know that means that religious institutions have failed.
- mistermann 9y ago
  That's a fine theory, but to claim you know this with certainty I think is a much larger claim than you realize. What exactly makes humans behave they way they do is extremely complex - some people may behave exactly for the reason you describe, others may not, anyone that says they know for sure is not telling the truth (although that doesn't necessarily mean they're lying).

vowelless 9y ago

I think perhaps in parallel to you point, move towards centralization tends to overpower confederations. Incidentedly, this point is also made in the Federalist papers and I believe Wealth of Nations which argues that centralization leads to stability and robustness. Exclusivity and evangelism helped centralize Christianity in comparison with the pagans.

Balgair 9y ago

I think it's more like: "People don't think through their decisions very well" The OP points out that there are many nations that put in big funding for Islam in the west and around the world. Here in the US, the Mormon church is very similar. Other examples abound. More money means that it is more likely that the local mosque/temple is well funded, has free food, basketball courts, a gym, daycare, counseling services, etc. If the other local centers for religion or other social functions are not as well funded and stocked, it's not hard to see people flocking to the mosque/temple. The proximity will undoubtedly lead to conversions, or at least toleration of the religion. At first this is not so bad, but we all know the more extremist views of many religions can quickly take hold and may degrade women's rights, children's education, healthcare access, and justice decisions (see upstate NY). I am NOT saying this will happen or that any one religion is wholly better; we all have faults.