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We can have common beliefs independent from religion. Democracy, human rights, freedom, peace. None of these are religious.

yters 9y ago
If you look at their origin, they come from Christian teachings about the image of God in every person. The alternative is might makes right, which was the norm before Christianity.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  It is trivial to establish that the origins of these ideas are pre-Christian. The citizens of Athens 500 years before Jesus' birth lived in a well-documented democracy. Democracy became widespread inside the last 350 years, but started at least 2500 years ago, before Christ, in a pantheist society. In 549 BC Cyrus the Great freed the slaves and explicitly declared the human rights of freedom of religion and racial equality. Eirene is the Greek goddess of Peace. Her name is 'Peace'. The Athenians were very keen on her in 375 BC. Jesus himself was born and died in the Pax Romana (Roman Peace), which started before his birth and was so called at the time (reported by Seneca the Younger in 55AD). So peace can't be a Christian idea. Individual freedom of action and expression, independent of a ruling king or other authority, seems to be more modern idea. The key statements of freedom are all modern, starting with the Magna Carta (1215 AD). So maybe you can score that for Christianity, 1200 years after they got started.
  - n4r9 9y ago
    > maybe you can score [freedom of action and expression] for Christianity I've had trouble verifying this quotation, but: "There has been such a thing as letting mankind alone; there has never been such a thing as governing mankind. Letting alone springs from fear lest men’s natural dispositions be perverted and their virtue left aside. But if their natural dispositions be not perverted nor their virtue laid aside, what room is there left for government?" - Chuang Tzu (369–286 BC)
    - yters 9y ago
      Yes, many have stated these views, but it is only with the advent of Christianity that they've been given a rational foundation.
      - robotresearcher 9y ago
        Dogma is not an argument.
        yters 9y ago
        Exactly, that's the problem with humanism. It is just a dogma without rational argument.
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        Now I'm genuinely baffled. Here's the first sentence of the definition of Humanism on Wikipedia: "Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism and empiricism) over acceptance of dogma or superstition." And two of the sentences from the first paragraph from the entry on Christianity: "Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life, teachings, and miracles of Jesus of Nazareth, known by Christians as the Christ, or "Messiah", who is the focal point of the Christian faiths. [...] They believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of humanity whose coming as the Messiah (the Christ) was prophesied in the Old Testament." Your position is that the former of these is dogmatic and devoid of rational argument, to the contrary of the latter. I simply can not argue with that position. It's too weird.
        yters 9y ago
        How can humanism believe humans have free will if everything is physically determined? If we have no free will, we have no agency. It doesn't matter how much humanists assert to the contrary. Christianity, on the other hand, easily explains free will and agency.
  - yters 9y ago
    Did you know the democracy was just for the few free citizens in the city state? They still had plenty of slaves, apparently more slaves than citizens. Not exactly the same as our modern democracy. Interestingly, Cyrus seems to have had some kind of religious motivation for his view of human rights. "Thus saith Cyrus, king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all His people – the LORD, his God, be with him – let him go there." — (2 Chronicles 36:23) The peaceful Athenians ruined themselves by waging too many wars against Sparta. Pax Romana did bring peace and justice to a large part of the world, but it was a very brutal kind of justice, hence Jesus' death by crucifixion.
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      > Did you know the democracy was just for the few free citizens in the city state? Yes, of course. The vast majority of the Christian Era even in Europe has been spent in feudal monarchies. The modern African slave trade was run by Christian nation states. The Christians have been in charge in Europe since Constantine (306 AD). They spent some of that time burning 'witches'. > Not exactly the same as our modern democracy. Yes, almost all the Christian Era has been very different from our modern democracy, which is why I'm reluctant to attribute the current state purely to Christianity. If it's all in the Bible, and you've been in charge of a continent for 1700 years, why did we have to wait until 1776 (for white Americans) or 1836 (for black Americans) or 1890 (for female Americans) to get freedom and democracy? edit: another important one: We waited until 2015 for homosexual Americans to gain the freedom to marry, previously denied by the Christian state because: 'And if a man also lies with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.' Leviticus (20:13) (condemnation never revised in the New Testament.) So much for freedom.
      - yters 9y ago
        Slavery died out in Christian Europe, it remained in Islamic countries, where it again eventually spread to Europe. Christians were not in charge for 1700 years, and it took awhile to work through the logical implications of Christian doctrine in a largely pagan society. But, the freedoms all have their root in Christian doctrine. Name another society, secular or pagan, that brought about the same freedoms without Christian influence. Perhaps the state took awhile to recognize homosexual marriage because the state only has an interest in heterosexual marriage that produces new citizens of the state.

yters 9y ago

If you look at their origin, they come from Christian teachings about the image of God in every person. The alternative is might makes right, which was the norm before Christianity.

robotresearcher 9y ago
It is trivial to establish that the origins of these ideas are pre-Christian. The citizens of Athens 500 years before Jesus' birth lived in a well-documented democracy. Democracy became widespread inside the last 350 years, but started at least 2500 years ago, before Christ, in a pantheist society. In 549 BC Cyrus the Great freed the slaves and explicitly declared the human rights of freedom of religion and racial equality. Eirene is the Greek goddess of Peace. Her name is 'Peace'. The Athenians were very keen on her in 375 BC. Jesus himself was born and died in the Pax Romana (Roman Peace), which started before his birth and was so called at the time (reported by Seneca the Younger in 55AD). So peace can't be a Christian idea. Individual freedom of action and expression, independent of a ruling king or other authority, seems to be more modern idea. The key statements of freedom are all modern, starting with the Magna Carta (1215 AD). So maybe you can score that for Christianity, 1200 years after they got started.
- n4r9 9y ago
  > maybe you can score [freedom of action and expression] for Christianity I've had trouble verifying this quotation, but: "There has been such a thing as letting mankind alone; there has never been such a thing as governing mankind. Letting alone springs from fear lest men’s natural dispositions be perverted and their virtue left aside. But if their natural dispositions be not perverted nor their virtue laid aside, what room is there left for government?" - Chuang Tzu (369–286 BC)
  - yters 9y ago
    Yes, many have stated these views, but it is only with the advent of Christianity that they've been given a rational foundation.
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      Dogma is not an argument.
      - yters 9y ago
        Exactly, that's the problem with humanism. It is just a dogma without rational argument.
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        Now I'm genuinely baffled. Here's the first sentence of the definition of Humanism on Wikipedia: "Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism and empiricism) over acceptance of dogma or superstition." And two of the sentences from the first paragraph from the entry on Christianity: "Christianity is an Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life, teachings, and miracles of Jesus of Nazareth, known by Christians as the Christ, or "Messiah", who is the focal point of the Christian faiths. [...] They believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of humanity whose coming as the Messiah (the Christ) was prophesied in the Old Testament." Your position is that the former of these is dogmatic and devoid of rational argument, to the contrary of the latter. I simply can not argue with that position. It's too weird.
        yters 9y ago
        How can humanism believe humans have free will if everything is physically determined? If we have no free will, we have no agency. It doesn't matter how much humanists assert to the contrary. Christianity, on the other hand, easily explains free will and agency.
- yters 9y ago
  Did you know the democracy was just for the few free citizens in the city state? They still had plenty of slaves, apparently more slaves than citizens. Not exactly the same as our modern democracy. Interestingly, Cyrus seems to have had some kind of religious motivation for his view of human rights. "Thus saith Cyrus, king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all His people – the LORD, his God, be with him – let him go there." — (2 Chronicles 36:23) The peaceful Athenians ruined themselves by waging too many wars against Sparta. Pax Romana did bring peace and justice to a large part of the world, but it was a very brutal kind of justice, hence Jesus' death by crucifixion.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    > Did you know the democracy was just for the few free citizens in the city state? Yes, of course. The vast majority of the Christian Era even in Europe has been spent in feudal monarchies. The modern African slave trade was run by Christian nation states. The Christians have been in charge in Europe since Constantine (306 AD). They spent some of that time burning 'witches'. > Not exactly the same as our modern democracy. Yes, almost all the Christian Era has been very different from our modern democracy, which is why I'm reluctant to attribute the current state purely to Christianity. If it's all in the Bible, and you've been in charge of a continent for 1700 years, why did we have to wait until 1776 (for white Americans) or 1836 (for black Americans) or 1890 (for female Americans) to get freedom and democracy? edit: another important one: We waited until 2015 for homosexual Americans to gain the freedom to marry, previously denied by the Christian state because: 'And if a man also lies with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.' Leviticus (20:13) (condemnation never revised in the New Testament.) So much for freedom.
    - yters 9y ago
      Slavery died out in Christian Europe, it remained in Islamic countries, where it again eventually spread to Europe. Christians were not in charge for 1700 years, and it took awhile to work through the logical implications of Christian doctrine in a largely pagan society. But, the freedoms all have their root in Christian doctrine. Name another society, secular or pagan, that brought about the same freedoms without Christian influence. Perhaps the state took awhile to recognize homosexual marriage because the state only has an interest in heterosexual marriage that produces new citizens of the state.