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I for one as believer find phrases like "non-Christian Europe" (or "post-Christian") sad and intriguing given that European Union has its roots in Christianity

by pjf 9y ago

I for one as believer find phrases like "non-Christian Europe" (or "post-Christian") sad and intriguing given that European Union has its roots in Christianity and was so deeply shaped by notable Christians, incl. Robert Schuman, one of the founding fathers. I think without common beliefs it will be more difficult to keep and develop the union.

GuiA 9y ago
That sentiment feels... misguided? The EU is an economic and ideological construct, certainly not religious. The fact that some key figures were deeply religious is completely orthogonal to that. Ie France has been deeply secular since the late 1800s/early 1900s, long before its role as a founding EU state. The EU has “Christian roots” insomuch as Christianity has been a dominant religion in Europe, but implying that religion and the EU go together in some fundamental way is just wrong.
n4r9 9y ago
There is and will for a long time be a shared culture which is distinctively European. It's just becoming less focused on religion.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  But that shared culture had deep roots in Christianity. One of the more interesting questions is, without the Christianity, what will happen to the culture? (Even if you're an atheist, it's a relevant question. You don't have to go to church, but you still have to live in the culture.) And it's too soon to tell, really. The cultural habits last longer than the roots from which they grew. If the roots are gone, will the cultural habits find new roots? Will they survive without them? Or will they just slowly fade away over the next several generations?
robotresearcher 9y ago
We can have common beliefs independent from religion. Democracy, human rights, freedom, peace. None of these are religious.
- yters 9y ago
  If you look at their origin, they come from Christian teachings about the image of God in every person. The alternative is might makes right, which was the norm before Christianity.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    It is trivial to establish that the origins of these ideas are pre-Christian. The citizens of Athens 500 years before Jesus' birth lived in a well-documented democracy. Democracy became widespread inside the last 350 years, but started at least 2500 years ago, before Christ, in a pantheist society. In 549 BC Cyrus the Great freed the slaves and explicitly declared the human rights of freedom of religion and racial equality. Eirene is the Greek goddess of Peace. Her name is 'Peace'. The Athenians were very keen on her in 375 BC. Jesus himself was born and died in the Pax Romana (Roman Peace), which started before his birth and was so called at the time (reported by Seneca the Younger in 55AD). So peace can't be a Christian idea. Individual freedom of action and expression, independent of a ruling king or other authority, seems to be more modern idea. The key statements of freedom are all modern, starting with the Magna Carta (1215 AD). So maybe you can score that for Christianity, 1200 years after they got started.
    - n4r9 9y ago
      > maybe you can score [freedom of action and expression] for Christianity I've had trouble verifying this quotation, but: "There has been such a thing as letting mankind alone; there has never been such a thing as governing mankind. Letting alone springs from fear lest men’s natural dispositions be perverted and their virtue left aside. But if their natural dispositions be not perverted nor their virtue laid aside, what room is there left for government?" - Chuang Tzu (369–286 BC)
      - yters 9y ago
        Yes, many have stated these views, but it is only with the advent of Christianity that they've been given a rational foundation.
unknown_apostle 9y ago
The main or even only thing 2 countries like Finland and Italy have in common was belonging to Christendom.
- leadingthenet 9y ago
  It was eye opening to me when I went to Asia and realised there’s practically no difference in culture when comparing Europeans to each other, and when comparing them to various Asian cultures. I don’t mean that in a bad way, but Italians and Fins (on average, of course) aren’t as different as they might have been led to believe, especially when both are compared to a Vietnamese. Warning: gross overgeneralisation.
patrickg_zill 9y ago
The EU is the brainchild of Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi and similar fellow travelers.
yongjik 9y ago
...What common beliefs? Europeans have massacred each other for believing the wrong kind of Christianity.

by pjf 9y ago

GuiA 9y ago

That sentiment feels... misguided? The EU is an economic and ideological construct, certainly not religious. The fact that some key figures were deeply religious is completely orthogonal to that. Ie France has been deeply secular since the late 1800s/early 1900s, long before its role as a founding EU state. The EU has “Christian roots” insomuch as Christianity has been a dominant religion in Europe, but implying that religion and the EU go together in some fundamental way is just wrong.

n4r9 9y ago

There is and will for a long time be a shared culture which is distinctively European. It's just becoming less focused on religion.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago
But that shared culture had deep roots in Christianity. One of the more interesting questions is, without the Christianity, what will happen to the culture? (Even if you're an atheist, it's a relevant question. You don't have to go to church, but you still have to live in the culture.) And it's too soon to tell, really. The cultural habits last longer than the roots from which they grew. If the roots are gone, will the cultural habits find new roots? Will they survive without them? Or will they just slowly fade away over the next several generations?

robotresearcher 9y ago

We can have common beliefs independent from religion. Democracy, human rights, freedom, peace. None of these are religious.

yters 9y ago
If you look at their origin, they come from Christian teachings about the image of God in every person. The alternative is might makes right, which was the norm before Christianity.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  It is trivial to establish that the origins of these ideas are pre-Christian. The citizens of Athens 500 years before Jesus' birth lived in a well-documented democracy. Democracy became widespread inside the last 350 years, but started at least 2500 years ago, before Christ, in a pantheist society. In 549 BC Cyrus the Great freed the slaves and explicitly declared the human rights of freedom of religion and racial equality. Eirene is the Greek goddess of Peace. Her name is 'Peace'. The Athenians were very keen on her in 375 BC. Jesus himself was born and died in the Pax Romana (Roman Peace), which started before his birth and was so called at the time (reported by Seneca the Younger in 55AD). So peace can't be a Christian idea. Individual freedom of action and expression, independent of a ruling king or other authority, seems to be more modern idea. The key statements of freedom are all modern, starting with the Magna Carta (1215 AD). So maybe you can score that for Christianity, 1200 years after they got started.
  - n4r9 9y ago
    > maybe you can score [freedom of action and expression] for Christianity I've had trouble verifying this quotation, but: "There has been such a thing as letting mankind alone; there has never been such a thing as governing mankind. Letting alone springs from fear lest men’s natural dispositions be perverted and their virtue left aside. But if their natural dispositions be not perverted nor their virtue laid aside, what room is there left for government?" - Chuang Tzu (369–286 BC)
    - yters 9y ago
      Yes, many have stated these views, but it is only with the advent of Christianity that they've been given a rational foundation.

unknown_apostle 9y ago

The main or even only thing 2 countries like Finland and Italy have in common was belonging to Christendom.

leadingthenet 9y ago
It was eye opening to me when I went to Asia and realised there’s practically no difference in culture when comparing Europeans to each other, and when comparing them to various Asian cultures. I don’t mean that in a bad way, but Italians and Fins (on average, of course) aren’t as different as they might have been led to believe, especially when both are compared to a Vietnamese. Warning: gross overgeneralisation.

patrickg_zill 9y ago

The EU is the brainchild of Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi and similar fellow travelers.

yongjik 9y ago

...What common beliefs? Europeans have massacred each other for believing the wrong kind of Christianity.