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I am not Japanese, I can only marvel at the complexity and subtleness of Japanese culture. But I sort of get it, you start interacting with anyone and it opens

I am not Japanese, I can only marvel at the complexity and subtleness of Japanese culture. But I sort of get it, you start interacting with anyone and it opens you up to the pressure and the questions and with Enryo you can't really talk openly and be accepted. Would these people be happier living outside of Japan?

ohiovr 9y ago
I'm not japanese so I don't know. But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful. The pain they have must be less than the pain they feel being around others. Some would probably consider going to other lands but sounds like they don't have money for the option. The $25 million the japanese government needs for them sounds like a really small number for nearly half a million of them.. I do well in the states but I think I could relate to what they did in Japan since Japan places such huge amounts of value on honor and self success. It sounds like a double edge sword. It's good to have a society that values success but leaving about half a percent of the population as shut ins doesn't seem right.
- wanda 9y ago
  > But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful. I'm not diagnosed as autistic or as a psychopath, but I'm really not a very emotional or social person. I take great pleasure in being alone, far from the madding crowd, and I find it much more difficult to be among other people, mandating the menagerie of masks necessary for me to get where I want to go in society w.r.t. my career etc. I say masks, because unlike many people I seem to meet, I do not have any enthusiasm for consumption, decadence and self-gratification. I mean, I'm no buddhist or anarchist, I just prefer to perfect my craft over going out on the town or accumulating wealth I'll never use. I'm happy with cereal, I don't need some kind of smoked dolphin's nose on squid-ink dyed seventy-seed toast. I therefore have to act in a certain way, other than as myself, in order to be perceived to be relating to people I meet and work with. In reality, you might call me a stoic, to use a loose definition of the term. I don't find it painful to act like someone I'm fundamentally not, indeed to act in an archetype I internally find rather absurd, but it is tiresome. It tires me greatly to be among other people, and I try to keep my relationships with others to a minimum. I have nothing to hide, I just prefer to spend time in solitary and uninterrupted recreation or study, refining skills and knowledge of topics I find interesting. I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'm not saying that my individual existence is a significant indicator of anything contrary to your point, but my existence does at least indicate that some humans (since I find it difficult to believe I am alone) aren't as intensely social or pained by isolation as you say – and I dare say there's more than a little overlap between the set of asocial humans and the set of self-isolating hikikomori who prefer no company at all. Though, in my experience on anonymous message boards over the past fifteen years online, hikikomori (or at least the western equivalent) seem to prefer the company of others like themselves whom they may encounter on said message boards. Or some certainly act like they prefer the imagined company of anime/video game characters to the company of other human beings, most of whom will never, ever come close to understanding them or what they're about.
  - ohiovr 9y ago
    I think everyone is in search of a tribe to be a part of, even the hikikomori. I'm a loner also. I grew up on the countryside with no one to talk except close family. I had a lot of books to read. The internet looks like a lot of tribes but the more you observe, the more inhuman it appears. The web seems like the ideal place to fit in with all its possibilities but it falls short. Even in the country I interact with people on a weekly basis. Now if I were a real loner I'd move to the wastes of Alaska and tough it out there. Most of us depend on civilization and that makes us all oddly social at least. I do hate crowds and their single cell animal like behavior. Sometimes I avoid a crowd behavior to a fault. It is hard to undo 40 years of my behavior.
    - wanda 9y ago
      I would honestly prefer to eliminate human interaction. Or at least, if I had to choose between no human interaction and lots of interaction, I would choose none. Fortunately the internet exists, and thus I can moderate and filter my interaction. That is what I find valuable about the internet – I entered expecting nothing, honestly I was just seeking information when I heard the dial-up tone for the first time. But what I found were people who, while not necessary like me, were talking about things that interested me, things I could never discuss with people in my physical vicinity at school or at home. But there is a difference, and this is the part that I find to be at odds with the idea of seeking a tribe (in my case). When I speak to people on the internet, I feel more as though I'm speaking to an idea, usually one that is contrary to my own. That's precisely why I like it, I'm not socialising, I'm pursuing an idea to its conclusion as I might a puzzle or a game. There are other things that are good about the internet, of course. No one's voice is greater or lesser on account of their status or anecdotal evidence. There are just ideas and arguments. Ideas and arguments I am quite capable of thinking up and testing internally, by playing devil's advocate, but I find it less efficient. Same goes for the socialising that is necessary to work, to have a home, etc. I often (at least in my youth) dreamed about living in a lighthouse or some kind of cabin, miles from anyone, but I find a modicum of social interaction to be preferable given that, in exchange, I don't have to go foraging for food or firewood, I can just go to the store and pay for a heating system, respectively. I guess I really struggle with close relationships. I've had a few in my time, and every time I have brought the relationship to a conclusion because I came to resent that other person's need for interaction at inopportune (for me) times. I could go the entire day and barely acknowledge their existence, and that's not really a healthy relationship when one does that. It's not fair on them, and the moment I start to act and pretend to be something I'm not (an attentive partner who is concerned about the minutiae of my significant other's life) it becomes unfair on me. Resentment is probably the biggest killer of relationships for most people, especially when it's financial or sexual, but in my case it's much simpler: I just want to be alone. Another thing I like about the internet is that the socialising I've done, and continue to do, is on-demand i.e. I can socialise with people when I have some time to set aside, in a state that is neither tired enough to sleep and yet not energised enough to work productively on something I care about. In the real world, or in a relationship, socialising occurs at times that are not of my choosing, for durations that are not of my choosing (often longer than I'd like) and concerning topics that do not remotely interest me. This conversation you and I are having right now is relevant to my interests (psychology in general, not narcissistic self-interest) and thus I choose to perpetuate it by replying. If this message draws the conversation to a conclusion, or if your prospective reply leaves nothing further to be said, I can simply move on to the next thing. I don't need to find a new topic to raise with you. I don't have to worry about you. It's simply done. tl; dr: internet socialising is both rather unsocial (I have no idea who you are, you don't know who I am, and while we could perhaps dox each other, there's no need, and thus only our words on a given topic matter) and transactional, and thus the internet enables me to prevent myself from getting tired due to over-socialising while at the same time pursuing a line of thought to its conclusion more efficiently (or at least with half the effort) than I might do myself. Edit: there's another factor that brings me to socialise online, and that is that I do love to write. It's not that I enjoy the sound of (or rather, sight of) my own voice, but I take great pleasure in simply writing my thoughts. I've wanted to write books for as long as I can remember, long before I became a developer, but unfortunately my life has never allowed me to go in that direction. One day, I guess.
- ionised 9y ago
  > But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful. Not everyone fits that mould though, and plenty of people actively seek out solitude because it is pleasurable.
vgf 9y ago
At a previous temporary job posting in northern Europe/Scandinavia I worked with some Japanese men and women (three individuals in total) - all fantastic people by the way, I still regard myself an active/actual friend of all of them - who all basically first went there as part of a student exchange program and then realized/thought they would be happier there than back in Japan and then made an explicit decision to stay and try to get jobs. I discussed this topic in varying degrees with these people. The message was relatively uniform: they didn't think the Japanese work culture was healthy and what they had witnessed studying in Scandinavia encouraged them to stay there. After a while they made an explicit decision to try build their life there. They had been there for like 5-10 years already when I met them; two had families with young kids and one was still dating. This kind of "escape" requires quite strong language skills though. And social skills. Of course these individuals were preselected in various ways, like 1) attempting to go study abroad in a Scandinavian country (that in itself is a fairly extreme decision in Japan, I have been led to believe) 2) deciding to stay 3) getting a position in the multi-national company I was temporarily working at So I'm definitely not saying all Japanese people feel this way. But still I feel it's relevant to note this kind of escape for Japanese people who feel they are not cut out for the traditional way of doing things.
fzeroracer 9y ago
I believe so, yes. Japan currently has an incredibly lonely culture that results not in the hikikomori trend we see but also elderly people purposely getting arrested so that they can have more of a social life [1]. So you have people at all fringes of society either withdrawing from it, or desperate to find somewhere to belong. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-prisons-are-a-haven-for-elderly-women https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-p...

ohiovr 9y ago

I'm not japanese so I don't know. But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful. The pain they have must be less than the pain they feel being around others. Some would probably consider going to other lands but sounds like they don't have money for the option. The $25 million the japanese government needs for them sounds like a really small number for nearly half a million of them.. I do well in the states but I think I could relate to what they did in Japan since Japan places such huge amounts of value on honor and self success. It sounds like a double edge sword. It's good to have a society that values success but leaving about half a percent of the population as shut ins doesn't seem right.

wanda 9y ago
> But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful. I'm not diagnosed as autistic or as a psychopath, but I'm really not a very emotional or social person. I take great pleasure in being alone, far from the madding crowd, and I find it much more difficult to be among other people, mandating the menagerie of masks necessary for me to get where I want to go in society w.r.t. my career etc. I say masks, because unlike many people I seem to meet, I do not have any enthusiasm for consumption, decadence and self-gratification. I mean, I'm no buddhist or anarchist, I just prefer to perfect my craft over going out on the town or accumulating wealth I'll never use. I'm happy with cereal, I don't need some kind of smoked dolphin's nose on squid-ink dyed seventy-seed toast. I therefore have to act in a certain way, other than as myself, in order to be perceived to be relating to people I meet and work with. In reality, you might call me a stoic, to use a loose definition of the term. I don't find it painful to act like someone I'm fundamentally not, indeed to act in an archetype I internally find rather absurd, but it is tiresome. It tires me greatly to be among other people, and I try to keep my relationships with others to a minimum. I have nothing to hide, I just prefer to spend time in solitary and uninterrupted recreation or study, refining skills and knowledge of topics I find interesting. I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'm not saying that my individual existence is a significant indicator of anything contrary to your point, but my existence does at least indicate that some humans (since I find it difficult to believe I am alone) aren't as intensely social or pained by isolation as you say – and I dare say there's more than a little overlap between the set of asocial humans and the set of self-isolating hikikomori who prefer no company at all. Though, in my experience on anonymous message boards over the past fifteen years online, hikikomori (or at least the western equivalent) seem to prefer the company of others like themselves whom they may encounter on said message boards. Or some certainly act like they prefer the imagined company of anime/video game characters to the company of other human beings, most of whom will never, ever come close to understanding them or what they're about.
- ohiovr 9y ago
  I think everyone is in search of a tribe to be a part of, even the hikikomori. I'm a loner also. I grew up on the countryside with no one to talk except close family. I had a lot of books to read. The internet looks like a lot of tribes but the more you observe, the more inhuman it appears. The web seems like the ideal place to fit in with all its possibilities but it falls short. Even in the country I interact with people on a weekly basis. Now if I were a real loner I'd move to the wastes of Alaska and tough it out there. Most of us depend on civilization and that makes us all oddly social at least. I do hate crowds and their single cell animal like behavior. Sometimes I avoid a crowd behavior to a fault. It is hard to undo 40 years of my behavior.
  - wanda 9y ago
    I would honestly prefer to eliminate human interaction. Or at least, if I had to choose between no human interaction and lots of interaction, I would choose none. Fortunately the internet exists, and thus I can moderate and filter my interaction. That is what I find valuable about the internet – I entered expecting nothing, honestly I was just seeking information when I heard the dial-up tone for the first time. But what I found were people who, while not necessary like me, were talking about things that interested me, things I could never discuss with people in my physical vicinity at school or at home. But there is a difference, and this is the part that I find to be at odds with the idea of seeking a tribe (in my case). When I speak to people on the internet, I feel more as though I'm speaking to an idea, usually one that is contrary to my own. That's precisely why I like it, I'm not socialising, I'm pursuing an idea to its conclusion as I might a puzzle or a game. There are other things that are good about the internet, of course. No one's voice is greater or lesser on account of their status or anecdotal evidence. There are just ideas and arguments. Ideas and arguments I am quite capable of thinking up and testing internally, by playing devil's advocate, but I find it less efficient. Same goes for the socialising that is necessary to work, to have a home, etc. I often (at least in my youth) dreamed about living in a lighthouse or some kind of cabin, miles from anyone, but I find a modicum of social interaction to be preferable given that, in exchange, I don't have to go foraging for food or firewood, I can just go to the store and pay for a heating system, respectively. I guess I really struggle with close relationships. I've had a few in my time, and every time I have brought the relationship to a conclusion because I came to resent that other person's need for interaction at inopportune (for me) times. I could go the entire day and barely acknowledge their existence, and that's not really a healthy relationship when one does that. It's not fair on them, and the moment I start to act and pretend to be something I'm not (an attentive partner who is concerned about the minutiae of my significant other's life) it becomes unfair on me. Resentment is probably the biggest killer of relationships for most people, especially when it's financial or sexual, but in my case it's much simpler: I just want to be alone. Another thing I like about the internet is that the socialising I've done, and continue to do, is on-demand i.e. I can socialise with people when I have some time to set aside, in a state that is neither tired enough to sleep and yet not energised enough to work productively on something I care about. In the real world, or in a relationship, socialising occurs at times that are not of my choosing, for durations that are not of my choosing (often longer than I'd like) and concerning topics that do not remotely interest me. This conversation you and I are having right now is relevant to my interests (psychology in general, not narcissistic self-interest) and thus I choose to perpetuate it by replying. If this message draws the conversation to a conclusion, or if your prospective reply leaves nothing further to be said, I can simply move on to the next thing. I don't need to find a new topic to raise with you. I don't have to worry about you. It's simply done. tl; dr: internet socialising is both rather unsocial (I have no idea who you are, you don't know who I am, and while we could perhaps dox each other, there's no need, and thus only our words on a given topic matter) and transactional, and thus the internet enables me to prevent myself from getting tired due to over-socialising while at the same time pursuing a line of thought to its conclusion more efficiently (or at least with half the effort) than I might do myself. Edit: there's another factor that brings me to socialise online, and that is that I do love to write. It's not that I enjoy the sound of (or rather, sight of) my own voice, but I take great pleasure in simply writing my thoughts. I've wanted to write books for as long as I can remember, long before I became a developer, but unfortunately my life has never allowed me to go in that direction. One day, I guess.
ionised 9y ago
> But I know that human beings are intensely social creatures and being alone, even if in self exile must be painful. Not everyone fits that mould though, and plenty of people actively seek out solitude because it is pleasurable.

vgf 9y ago

At a previous temporary job posting in northern Europe/Scandinavia I worked with some Japanese men and women (three individuals in total) - all fantastic people by the way, I still regard myself an active/actual friend of all of them - who all basically first went there as part of a student exchange program and then realized/thought they would be happier there than back in Japan and then made an explicit decision to stay and try to get jobs. I discussed this topic in varying degrees with these people. The message was relatively uniform: they didn't think the Japanese work culture was healthy and what they had witnessed studying in Scandinavia encouraged them to stay there. After a while they made an explicit decision to try build their life there. They had been there for like 5-10 years already when I met them; two had families with young kids and one was still dating. This kind of "escape" requires quite strong language skills though. And social skills. Of course these individuals were preselected in various ways, like 1) attempting to go study abroad in a Scandinavian country (that in itself is a fairly extreme decision in Japan, I have been led to believe) 2) deciding to stay 3) getting a position in the multi-national company I was temporarily working at So I'm definitely not saying all Japanese people feel this way. But still I feel it's relevant to note this kind of escape for Japanese people who feel they are not cut out for the traditional way of doing things.

fzeroracer 9y ago

I believe so, yes. Japan currently has an incredibly lonely culture that results not in the hikikomori trend we see but also elderly people purposely getting arrested so that they can have more of a social life [1]. So you have people at all fringes of society either withdrawing from it, or desperate to find somewhere to belong. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-prisons-are-a-haven-for-elderly-women https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-16/japan-s-p...