4 ms·

How can I politely say "no way" while still getting the job?

maxxxxx 9y ago
I think by politley saying "no way" :). When I did contracting I saw excessive non competes and usually when I told them calmly that I wouldn't sign this they would back off without problems. Only some companies made a fuzz.
logfromblammo 9y ago
The answer is that you don't want to take the job if saying "no way" would be a problem. It's a coal-mine canary whose death indicates that more severe problems will occur after you have committed yourself. The presence of the clause that requires rejection is itself a lesser warning, but not necessarily cause for immediate alarm.
vorpalhex 9y ago
"Hi, would it be possible to remove clause X?" usually works for me. I've occasionally had to use the slightly stronger, "I'm sorry, but I actually can't sign this until clause X is removed." Don't go into reasons, or get into a philosophical debate about it. The only time I've given an explanation was for a volunteer gig where I refused to sign an NDA at all, and had to explain to the coordinator "We can either be employee and employer where you pay me a lot more money then you have, or we can be two buddies working on a thing for free. We can't be two buddies where one guy has a contract against everyone else."
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  "Don't go into reasons, " Agree with that. Never explain your reasoning without being asked. It makes you look weak.
  - foo101 9y ago
    And also gives them an opportunity to offer a counter-argument which now requires you to offer your own counter-argument which could lead to a long and unpleasant debate. Not a great way to start work at a new company.
    - s73v3r_ 9y ago
      Most employers are shitty. That's just a fact of life.
- wccrawford 9y ago
  >"I'm sorry, but I actually can't sign this until clause X is removed." I said that once to someone about a liability clause that would possibly have cost more than I'd make there. He started accusing me of attempting to sabotage his business and was very angry. I just left. So glad I found that particular bombshell before I signed anything.
lambda_lover 9y ago
In my experience the problem is that these clauses are traditionally presented to you by a non-technical employee typically from HR, and (in my anecdotal experience) these employees usually try to dismiss your concerns with a "oh it's just a formality" or "all companies make you sign this sort of thing!"... so if you're not important enough to talk to someone higher up, you might just get your offer revoked if you try to fight it because your HR contact isn't important enough/doesn't care enough to fight against it for you, and the legal department only has so much time for custom agreements.
- paultopia 9y ago
  This is why the solution to this kind of problem is industry-by-industry collective action. Once 10 people in a row tell the HR person that they're not signing that garbage, even the densest bureaucrat will take notice.
- asfdsfggtfd 9y ago
  You have just been hired as their new rockstar developer. If HR lose you over this HR will be taking some flak. Just speak to your future line manager and explain that you have returned a modified version of the contract and that you hope that they will agree to it soon because you are really excited to start working.
- lb1lf 9y ago
  -Agreed that the clauses are most often presented by someone not authorized to waive them. However, I've found on the couple of occasions where (non-reasonable) NCAs were presented to me that simply claiming that the terms as stated are not acceptable and that a revised NCA must be prepared if I am to sign it results in a shrug and a 'Whatever. We'll just skip it, then.' Now, if they'd stood their ground, I'd have had to look elsewhere. (I am not a big fish - just a lowly engineer who do some management on the side - so they didn't waive the NCA for REALLY wanting me to come aboard; more from reluctance to go through all the hassles of either doing another hiring process OR amending the NCA.) (At a former employer, the NCA basically stated that anything I ever thought of, be it at work or after work, in my field of expertise or in whatever unrelated field, belonged to them. Oh, and this obligation extended past the termination of employment for a period of time decided at their discretion. Not enforceable in the least, but still...)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
golergka 9y ago
Yes, I've done exactly that several times. Couple of times they explicitly added provisions for hobby projects that I do in my spare time. The whole premise behind the outrage is alien to me: any contract that you're presented with is just the first step of negotiation. Of course it favors the author. Present them with an alternative, and then, step by step, you come to a compromise.
jackhack 9y ago
By simply stating you don't sign non-compete clauses because they're 1) illegal (in some states) 2) unenforceable (mostly) and 3) immoral. Work is a voluntary arrangement between both parties, at will, and you'll stay (and hopefully the employer will keep you) so long as it's good for both sides of the desk. Or tell the HR person you'd like to have some time for your lawyer to review it. Come back with a refusal or just strike out the lock-out terms, or change the duration to something you can accept (1 year -> 30 days), etc. Say this pleasantly and most HR types will accept it. I've had to walk away from a few offers, but most (maybe 4/5) firms accept my concerns with some version of "I understand." It's my experience that large corporations are more likely to be rigid and insist you sign it, which is your first warning that it's probably not a pleasant place to (literally) spend your life.

I think by politley saying "no way" :). When I did contracting I saw excessive non competes and usually when I told them calmly that I wouldn't sign this they would back off without problems. Only some companies made a fuzz.

logfromblammo 9y ago

The answer is that you don't want to take the job if saying "no way" would be a problem. It's a coal-mine canary whose death indicates that more severe problems will occur after you have committed yourself. The presence of the clause that requires rejection is itself a lesser warning, but not necessarily cause for immediate alarm.

vorpalhex 9y ago

"Hi, would it be possible to remove clause X?" usually works for me. I've occasionally had to use the slightly stronger, "I'm sorry, but I actually can't sign this until clause X is removed." Don't go into reasons, or get into a philosophical debate about it. The only time I've given an explanation was for a volunteer gig where I refused to sign an NDA at all, and had to explain to the coordinator "We can either be employee and employer where you pay me a lot more money then you have, or we can be two buddies working on a thing for free. We can't be two buddies where one guy has a contract against everyone else."

maxxxxx 9y ago
"Don't go into reasons, " Agree with that. Never explain your reasoning without being asked. It makes you look weak.
- foo101 9y ago
  And also gives them an opportunity to offer a counter-argument which now requires you to offer your own counter-argument which could lead to a long and unpleasant debate. Not a great way to start work at a new company.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    Most employers are shitty. That's just a fact of life.
wccrawford 9y ago
>"I'm sorry, but I actually can't sign this until clause X is removed." I said that once to someone about a liability clause that would possibly have cost more than I'd make there. He started accusing me of attempting to sabotage his business and was very angry. I just left. So glad I found that particular bombshell before I signed anything.

lambda_lover 9y ago

In my experience the problem is that these clauses are traditionally presented to you by a non-technical employee typically from HR, and (in my anecdotal experience) these employees usually try to dismiss your concerns with a "oh it's just a formality" or "all companies make you sign this sort of thing!"... so if you're not important enough to talk to someone higher up, you might just get your offer revoked if you try to fight it because your HR contact isn't important enough/doesn't care enough to fight against it for you, and the legal department only has so much time for custom agreements.

paultopia 9y ago
This is why the solution to this kind of problem is industry-by-industry collective action. Once 10 people in a row tell the HR person that they're not signing that garbage, even the densest bureaucrat will take notice.
asfdsfggtfd 9y ago
You have just been hired as their new rockstar developer. If HR lose you over this HR will be taking some flak. Just speak to your future line manager and explain that you have returned a modified version of the contract and that you hope that they will agree to it soon because you are really excited to start working.
lb1lf 9y ago
-Agreed that the clauses are most often presented by someone not authorized to waive them. However, I've found on the couple of occasions where (non-reasonable) NCAs were presented to me that simply claiming that the terms as stated are not acceptable and that a revised NCA must be prepared if I am to sign it results in a shrug and a 'Whatever. We'll just skip it, then.' Now, if they'd stood their ground, I'd have had to look elsewhere. (I am not a big fish - just a lowly engineer who do some management on the side - so they didn't waive the NCA for REALLY wanting me to come aboard; more from reluctance to go through all the hassles of either doing another hiring process OR amending the NCA.) (At a former employer, the NCA basically stated that anything I ever thought of, be it at work or after work, in my field of expertise or in whatever unrelated field, belonged to them. Oh, and this obligation extended past the termination of employment for a period of time decided at their discretion. Not enforceable in the least, but still...)

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

golergka 9y ago

Yes, I've done exactly that several times. Couple of times they explicitly added provisions for hobby projects that I do in my spare time. The whole premise behind the outrage is alien to me: any contract that you're presented with is just the first step of negotiation. Of course it favors the author. Present them with an alternative, and then, step by step, you come to a compromise.

jackhack 9y ago

By simply stating you don't sign non-compete clauses because they're 1) illegal (in some states) 2) unenforceable (mostly) and 3) immoral. Work is a voluntary arrangement between both parties, at will, and you'll stay (and hopefully the employer will keep you) so long as it's good for both sides of the desk. Or tell the HR person you'd like to have some time for your lawyer to review it. Come back with a refusal or just strike out the lock-out terms, or change the duration to something you can accept (1 year -> 30 days), etc. Say this pleasantly and most HR types will accept it. I've had to walk away from a few offers, but most (maybe 4/5) firms accept my concerns with some version of "I understand." It's my experience that large corporations are more likely to be rigid and insist you sign it, which is your first warning that it's probably not a pleasant place to (literally) spend your life.