20 ms·

Man guilty of hate crime for filming pug's 'Nazi salutes'

38 points by justin66 9y ago

zaroth 9y ago
In the video Mark prefaces the joke explaining that his girlfriend thinks her pug is the cutest thing in the world, and he’s clearly miffed by this (you can imagine the arguments between them) as his personal opinion is that pugs are the perfect example of why humans shouldn’t be trying to breed animals. So he set off to train the pug to do the most decidedly least cute thing possible, which was to raise its paw on the command of “Sieg Heil”. [1] The concerning thing here is that the hate crime statute in the UK is based not on the intent of the speaker or the state of mind of the speaker, but how anyone hearing the speech decides that they feel about it. In fact, even lacking an actual complainant is no burden, the state merely claims that is could be offensive and concerns some community afforded special protection therefore it is hate speech. You can argue about the comedic quality or value, but it’s pretty clear watching the video it’s highly sarcastic and dark humor and a hell of a prank, but not hate speech under any reasonable definition. And this of course is exactly the problem with so-called “hate speech” and various laws (untested by the Supreme Court in the US as far as I’m aware) that have come up against it. In the USA thank god we still have the right to offend, but clearly this is something which has been lost to the UK and appears to becoming weaponized to surpress political activism as well (see recent stories of Tommy Robinson at Speakers Corner). This comes on the heels, earlier this week, the London Police had to amend their website after claiming that people can be “charged” with an “offence” if their actions are within the law but their “reasons for doing it” are perceived as illegal hate by others. Thankfully that’s not actually true under statute. But as we see here, the thought police is still alive and well. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYslEzHbpus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYslEzHbpus (NSFW - Viewer discretion advised)
- cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
  I suggest that all HN readers in the UK go to their local stores containing DVDs/BluRays, find a copy of "The Producers", and then contact the police immediately because the movie concerns a group of crooked financiers that include Nazism to profit. Explain to the police that you are deeply offended that anyone would attempt to profit off of Nazism and that everyone associated with the movie and the people that own and run the store you found the DVD/BluRay in should be arrested and charged with offending you.
  - squozzer 9y ago
    Don't forget to do the same for Hogan's Heroes.
    - Zuider 9y ago
      Or Mel Brooks' 'Hitler Rap'. I Guess he's banned from Britain now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2NqfISm9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2NqfISm9k
  - UncleMeat 9y ago
    Except the producers is very clearly satirizing and criticizing Nazi propaganda and theater. The structure of these jokes are totally different.
    - cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
      It was clear to me that the video in question in the case was not glorifying Nazism - the person convicted stated he was sick of people saying his girlfriend's dog was cute so he trained the dog to do those things to both annoy his girlfriend as a joke and so people would stop thinking of the dog as cute because there's no less cute thing, in his mind, than a Nazi. The fact that some neo-Nazis liked it is, in my mind, beside the point. I'm sure some neo-Nazis liked "The Producers" for, in their minds, showing that catering to the neo-Nazi crowd was profitable.
- yup123 9y ago
  Free speech is a myth.
  - collyw 9y ago
    Downvoted. I can see people might disagree with this while other might not. Discussing it would be more interesting than downvoting.
- portofcall 9y ago
  In the USA thank god we still have the right to offend, but clearly this is something which has been lost to the UK and appears to becoming weaponized to surpress political activism as well (see recent stories of Tommy Robinson at Speakers Corner). You can’t lose what you never had, and the UK doesn’t have the 1st amendment. They don’t have freedom of speech and expression (at least not In such absolute terms) and never have. For example, super-injunctions and (I shit you not) hyper-injunctions.
  - olliej 9y ago
    Ludicrous injunctions!
  - cjrp 9y ago
    > In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention, and the guarantee of freedom of expression it contains in Article 10, into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act But as you said, there are lots of exceptions and exclusions. Don't these exist for the 1st amendment as well though, e.g. shouting fire in a theatre?
    - portofcall 9y ago
      They exist in two arenas, both (theoretically) subject to strict judicial oversight. The first as you reference is public safety, which includes inciting to violence, and other classic examples. The second is a bit murkier: national security. That said, something like a super injunction for a celebrity’s sex life would be flat-out impossible and unconstitutional.
  - ralusek 9y ago
    That's a strange way to think of it, that the state can supply that as a right. The people of the UK, and anywhere, have the freedom to say anything they'd like...if the state intervenes, they are removing the individual's existing liberty to do so. The first amendment is not a right provided to the people, but rather a restriction placed on the state, removing its own capability to impede upon an inherent liberty. I never think it's a good idea to think of a state as affording you a liberty which you had to begin with.
tropo 9y ago
Just 9 days ago, the UK held Lauren Southern under schedule 7 (terrorism act) and then refused her passage through the tunnel into the UK. https://twitter.com/Lauren_Southern/status/973100424419934208 https://twitter.com/Lauren_Southern/status/97310042441993420... That is not a free country.
- praulv 9y ago
  Hate speech and incitement to violence is not welcome in the UK, and quite rightly so.
  - AllegedAlec 9y ago
    And who decides what is hate speech and incitement to violence? The country which Orwell called home should know better than this.
    - amrx101 9y ago
      Lol, you should ask Indians about that.
      - stevew20 9y ago
        Ouch.
  - collyw 9y ago
    Neither Lauren Southern or this guy were inciting anyone to violence. And if you watch the video there was no "hate" in any reasonable sense of the word.
peterhadlaw 9y ago
What can be done to help this guy? It's incredibly unjust and sets a terrible precedent.
- jasonmp85 9y ago
  We can start by de-Nazifying his dog.
  - brianmurphy 9y ago
    I hope you are joking and not seriously suggesting a Pug that alerts on the word "jews" is a danger to anyone.
  - stevew20 9y ago
    While not constructive, this is by far the best comment on this thread. Nice to see some of Reddit's finest have moved on to HN. I lolzed so hard at this shameless and perfectly constructed comment.
iggg 9y ago
He should have known not to offend jewish people. In a country where you can be imprisoned for questioning history (the Holocaust specifically), it does not surprise me an anti-Semitic joke leads to inprisonment.

38 points by justin66 9y ago

In the video Mark prefaces the joke explaining that his girlfriend thinks her pug is the cutest thing in the world, and he’s clearly miffed by this (you can imagine the arguments between them) as his personal opinion is that pugs are the perfect example of why humans shouldn’t be trying to breed animals. So he set off to train the pug to do the most decidedly least cute thing possible, which was to raise its paw on the command of “Sieg Heil”. [1] The concerning thing here is that the hate crime statute in the UK is based not on the intent of the speaker or the state of mind of the speaker, but how anyone hearing the speech decides that they feel about it. In fact, even lacking an actual complainant is no burden, the state merely claims that is could be offensive and concerns some community afforded special protection therefore it is hate speech. You can argue about the comedic quality or value, but it’s pretty clear watching the video it’s highly sarcastic and dark humor and a hell of a prank, but not hate speech under any reasonable definition. And this of course is exactly the problem with so-called “hate speech” and various laws (untested by the Supreme Court in the US as far as I’m aware) that have come up against it. In the USA thank god we still have the right to offend, but clearly this is something which has been lost to the UK and appears to becoming weaponized to surpress political activism as well (see recent stories of Tommy Robinson at Speakers Corner). This comes on the heels, earlier this week, the London Police had to amend their website after claiming that people can be “charged” with an “offence” if their actions are within the law but their “reasons for doing it” are perceived as illegal hate by others. Thankfully that’s not actually true under statute. But as we see here, the thought police is still alive and well. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYslEzHbpus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYslEzHbpus (NSFW - Viewer discretion advised)

cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
I suggest that all HN readers in the UK go to their local stores containing DVDs/BluRays, find a copy of "The Producers", and then contact the police immediately because the movie concerns a group of crooked financiers that include Nazism to profit. Explain to the police that you are deeply offended that anyone would attempt to profit off of Nazism and that everyone associated with the movie and the people that own and run the store you found the DVD/BluRay in should be arrested and charged with offending you.
- squozzer 9y ago
  Don't forget to do the same for Hogan's Heroes.
  - Zuider 9y ago
    Or Mel Brooks' 'Hitler Rap'. I Guess he's banned from Britain now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2NqfISm9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2NqfISm9k
- UncleMeat 9y ago
  Except the producers is very clearly satirizing and criticizing Nazi propaganda and theater. The structure of these jokes are totally different.
  - cuckcuckspruce 9y ago
    It was clear to me that the video in question in the case was not glorifying Nazism - the person convicted stated he was sick of people saying his girlfriend's dog was cute so he trained the dog to do those things to both annoy his girlfriend as a joke and so people would stop thinking of the dog as cute because there's no less cute thing, in his mind, than a Nazi. The fact that some neo-Nazis liked it is, in my mind, beside the point. I'm sure some neo-Nazis liked "The Producers" for, in their minds, showing that catering to the neo-Nazi crowd was profitable.
yup123 9y ago
Free speech is a myth.
- collyw 9y ago
  Downvoted. I can see people might disagree with this while other might not. Discussing it would be more interesting than downvoting.
portofcall 9y ago
In the USA thank god we still have the right to offend, but clearly this is something which has been lost to the UK and appears to becoming weaponized to surpress political activism as well (see recent stories of Tommy Robinson at Speakers Corner). You can’t lose what you never had, and the UK doesn’t have the 1st amendment. They don’t have freedom of speech and expression (at least not In such absolute terms) and never have. For example, super-injunctions and (I shit you not) hyper-injunctions.
- olliej 9y ago
  Ludicrous injunctions!
- cjrp 9y ago
  > In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention, and the guarantee of freedom of expression it contains in Article 10, into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act But as you said, there are lots of exceptions and exclusions. Don't these exist for the 1st amendment as well though, e.g. shouting fire in a theatre?
  - portofcall 9y ago
    They exist in two arenas, both (theoretically) subject to strict judicial oversight. The first as you reference is public safety, which includes inciting to violence, and other classic examples. The second is a bit murkier: national security. That said, something like a super injunction for a celebrity’s sex life would be flat-out impossible and unconstitutional.
- ralusek 9y ago
  That's a strange way to think of it, that the state can supply that as a right. The people of the UK, and anywhere, have the freedom to say anything they'd like...if the state intervenes, they are removing the individual's existing liberty to do so. The first amendment is not a right provided to the people, but rather a restriction placed on the state, removing its own capability to impede upon an inherent liberty. I never think it's a good idea to think of a state as affording you a liberty which you had to begin with.

tropo 9y ago

Just 9 days ago, the UK held Lauren Southern under schedule 7 (terrorism act) and then refused her passage through the tunnel into the UK. https://twitter.com/Lauren_Southern/status/973100424419934208 https://twitter.com/Lauren_Southern/status/97310042441993420... That is not a free country.

praulv 9y ago
Hate speech and incitement to violence is not welcome in the UK, and quite rightly so.
- AllegedAlec 9y ago
  And who decides what is hate speech and incitement to violence? The country which Orwell called home should know better than this.
  - amrx101 9y ago
    Lol, you should ask Indians about that.
    - stevew20 9y ago
      Ouch.
- collyw 9y ago
  Neither Lauren Southern or this guy were inciting anyone to violence. And if you watch the video there was no "hate" in any reasonable sense of the word.

peterhadlaw 9y ago

What can be done to help this guy? It's incredibly unjust and sets a terrible precedent.

jasonmp85 9y ago
We can start by de-Nazifying his dog.
- brianmurphy 9y ago
  I hope you are joking and not seriously suggesting a Pug that alerts on the word "jews" is a danger to anyone.
- stevew20 9y ago
  While not constructive, this is by far the best comment on this thread. Nice to see some of Reddit's finest have moved on to HN. I lolzed so hard at this shameless and perfectly constructed comment.

iggg 9y ago

He should have known not to offend jewish people. In a country where you can be imprisoned for questioning history (the Holocaust specifically), it does not surprise me an anti-Semitic joke leads to inprisonment.