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> People didn't give one iota of a fuck when the Snowden revelations came out because they just assumed that it was the case already. It's more complex than th

> People didn't give one iota of a fuck when the Snowden revelations came out because they just assumed that it was the case already. It's more complex than that. The tracking and surveillance are not visible to the average person. Point your camera at someone in a coffee shop or bar and take their picture. They'll be coming over to ask you why you took their photo. The fact that the coffee shop or bar is brimming with overhead cameras is completely lost on them because it is mostly invisible (or least no longer noticed). Just wait until someone does a massive leak of actual personal data, photos, and videos, as opposed to abstract technical reports and Powerpoint slides that Snowden leaked. The average person will be screaming like a banshee when they can look up all the personal info and private pics of themselves and their neighbors and friends on some public webserver.

SmirkingRevenge 9y ago
The true data apocalypse will come when ISP logs are compromised and leaked (urls visited, dns lookups, tied to ip or even subscriber ids, etc), and there is enough leaked PII floating it out there to join it to people records.
- walrus01 9y ago
  With the exception of big evil things like Comcast, you might be surprised how few ISPs keep detailed logs like this. The effort to correlate them with customers is generally not worth it unless you get a subpoena, and only then is it done manually.
  - jodrellblank 9y ago
    (UK) The new surveillance law requires web and phone companies to store everyone’s web browsing histories for 12 months and give the police, security services and official agencies unprecedented access to the data. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/29/snoopers-charter-bill-becomes-law-extending-uk-state-surveillance https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/29/snoopers-chart...
    - walterstucco 9y ago
      What an ISP logs it's traffic made by ips not people Facebook tracks people not ips
    - IanPBann 9y ago
      While the UK is still part of the EU, will there be a case to have your history removed under the new GDPR legislation?
      - icebraining 9y ago
        No, the GDPR allows states to include exceptions for such cases: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/exemptions/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-da...
  - SmirkingRevenge 9y ago
    In the end, incompetence might save us all :)
setr 9y ago
>The fact that the coffee shop or bar is brimming with overhead cameras is completely lost on them because it is mostly invisible With the coffee shop, it makes sense; the cameras in retail are expected to only be used for review, when some event occurs. No one expects it to be used for data mining and behavioral analysis purposes. And even if it were, the expectation is that this would be for academic purposes; that is, with no real commercial intent. Worst case scenario is that it'd end up being archived in a box of tapes somewhere. Datamining abuses this expectation. But it makes sense for the expectation to exist; it was the norm until extremely recently.
- justboxing 9y ago
  > the cameras in retail are expected to only be used for review, when some event occurs. No one expects it to be used for data mining and behavioral analysis purposes. Right. Except that this is also not true. Source: "A crashed advertisement reveals the code of the facial recognition system used by a pizza shop in Oslo..." => https://twitter.com/gamblelee/status/862307447276544000?lang=en https://twitter.com/gamblelee/status/862307447276544000?lang...
  - coloredtopbar 9y ago
    The word "reveals" is used because it is not expected by the average person. Otherwise it would be something like "confirms expectation".
    - vog 9y ago
      No, the word "reveals" is used because the code is revealed. Well, it's more a "log file" than "code", but that's detail. The point is that the "code" (log file) is usually hidden from average people. Also, the word "reveals" is used to make the headline more sensational, just like any other headline. It doesn't tell you anything about the average person.
  - setr 9y ago
    How does this show that data mining isn't an abuse of expectation? The reason this is even an article in the first place is presumably because it conflicts directly with expected use.
dorgo 9y ago
>when they can look up all the personal info and private pics of themselves and their neighbors and friends on some public webserver. I always thought this webserver is called "facebook", isn't it?
squarefoot 9y ago
My local bar has over a half dozen cameras pointed to customers and workers areas. I installed them plus the DVR at owner request, they're perfectly visible and nobody gives a damn (except a couple customers once asking if the devices were also listening and recording audio). Everyone knows the owner doesn't use the data for anything illegal, and one time thanks to cameras we caught a worker who stole food bags to use or sell them elsewhere. Trust does also play a role here.
- mykull 9y ago
  You mean everyone assumes he doesn't abuse the data. That's different than knowing. It's just the lazy and thoughtless stance to take. "Why would they be allowed to have the cameras if they were up to no good"? Businesses are assumed to do no wrong and meet some high moral standard because it's easy to.
  - leibnizwasright 9y ago
    I also used not to care, because I used to think that "I don't put that much information on it". But it always said data, but not which data, now I know it buys data from other to cross it, don't know which data they buy and don't know what kind of information they are able to get when they do this. This is what we are only now understanding that they are doing and what is possible to do with this. And of course, Facebook say the least minimum necessary to keep profiting with no problems. Hence I don't see how we can expect people to really know what Facebook does.
sizzle 9y ago
Excellent point. I'd also like to add, people are afraid and feel powerless and tend to focus on more productive things such as raising their kids.
sizzle 9y ago
Excellent point. I'd also like to add, people are afraid and feel powerless and tend to focus on more productive things such as raising their kids. Normal people aren't obsessing over tech like the common hn reader.

SmirkingRevenge 9y ago

The true data apocalypse will come when ISP logs are compromised and leaked (urls visited, dns lookups, tied to ip or even subscriber ids, etc), and there is enough leaked PII floating it out there to join it to people records.

walrus01 9y ago
With the exception of big evil things like Comcast, you might be surprised how few ISPs keep detailed logs like this. The effort to correlate them with customers is generally not worth it unless you get a subpoena, and only then is it done manually.
- jodrellblank 9y ago
  (UK) The new surveillance law requires web and phone companies to store everyone’s web browsing histories for 12 months and give the police, security services and official agencies unprecedented access to the data. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/29/snoopers-charter-bill-becomes-law-extending-uk-state-surveillance https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/29/snoopers-chart...
  - walterstucco 9y ago
    What an ISP logs it's traffic made by ips not people Facebook tracks people not ips
  - IanPBann 9y ago
    While the UK is still part of the EU, will there be a case to have your history removed under the new GDPR legislation?
    - icebraining 9y ago
      No, the GDPR allows states to include exceptions for such cases: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/exemptions/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-da...
- SmirkingRevenge 9y ago
  In the end, incompetence might save us all :)

setr 9y ago

>The fact that the coffee shop or bar is brimming with overhead cameras is completely lost on them because it is mostly invisible With the coffee shop, it makes sense; the cameras in retail are expected to only be used for review, when some event occurs. No one expects it to be used for data mining and behavioral analysis purposes. And even if it were, the expectation is that this would be for academic purposes; that is, with no real commercial intent. Worst case scenario is that it'd end up being archived in a box of tapes somewhere. Datamining abuses this expectation. But it makes sense for the expectation to exist; it was the norm until extremely recently.

justboxing 9y ago
> the cameras in retail are expected to only be used for review, when some event occurs. No one expects it to be used for data mining and behavioral analysis purposes. Right. Except that this is also not true. Source: "A crashed advertisement reveals the code of the facial recognition system used by a pizza shop in Oslo..." => https://twitter.com/gamblelee/status/862307447276544000?lang=en https://twitter.com/gamblelee/status/862307447276544000?lang...
- coloredtopbar 9y ago
  The word "reveals" is used because it is not expected by the average person. Otherwise it would be something like "confirms expectation".
  - vog 9y ago
    No, the word "reveals" is used because the code is revealed. Well, it's more a "log file" than "code", but that's detail. The point is that the "code" (log file) is usually hidden from average people. Also, the word "reveals" is used to make the headline more sensational, just like any other headline. It doesn't tell you anything about the average person.
- setr 9y ago
  How does this show that data mining isn't an abuse of expectation? The reason this is even an article in the first place is presumably because it conflicts directly with expected use.

dorgo 9y ago

>when they can look up all the personal info and private pics of themselves and their neighbors and friends on some public webserver. I always thought this webserver is called "facebook", isn't it?

squarefoot 9y ago

My local bar has over a half dozen cameras pointed to customers and workers areas. I installed them plus the DVR at owner request, they're perfectly visible and nobody gives a damn (except a couple customers once asking if the devices were also listening and recording audio). Everyone knows the owner doesn't use the data for anything illegal, and one time thanks to cameras we caught a worker who stole food bags to use or sell them elsewhere. Trust does also play a role here.

mykull 9y ago
You mean everyone assumes he doesn't abuse the data. That's different than knowing. It's just the lazy and thoughtless stance to take. "Why would they be allowed to have the cameras if they were up to no good"? Businesses are assumed to do no wrong and meet some high moral standard because it's easy to.
- leibnizwasright 9y ago
  I also used not to care, because I used to think that "I don't put that much information on it". But it always said data, but not which data, now I know it buys data from other to cross it, don't know which data they buy and don't know what kind of information they are able to get when they do this. This is what we are only now understanding that they are doing and what is possible to do with this. And of course, Facebook say the least minimum necessary to keep profiting with no problems. Hence I don't see how we can expect people to really know what Facebook does.

sizzle 9y ago

Excellent point. I'd also like to add, people are afraid and feel powerless and tend to focus on more productive things such as raising their kids.

sizzle 9y ago

Excellent point. I'd also like to add, people are afraid and feel powerless and tend to focus on more productive things such as raising their kids. Normal people aren't obsessing over tech like the common hn reader.