8 ms·

I've been to at least 10 different county jails and to Florida State Prison twice, and I feel like I know already what you're biggest problem is going to be...

by cubano 9y ago

I've been to at least 10 different county jails and to Florida State Prison twice, and I feel like I know already what you're biggest problem is going to be... It's going to be the one(s) that screw it all up for the many. All it's going to take is one criminal in your program to go out and kill and rob an elderly couple for society to force the politicians to end your noble and well-meaning experiment and put those people back behind bars. I've seen it over and over in my many years of being locked up...programs designed to give inmates and convicts a shot at bettering themselves are totally abused by a few totally selfish and uncaring dickwads that actually enjoy the fact they just fucked it up for everyone else. But regardless of that, I think your program holds great promise and wish you nothing but success with it.

blattimwind 9y ago
> I've been to at least 10 different county jails and to Florida State Prison twice How exactly did you manage that?
- grogenaut 9y ago
  Simple Guess: Laywer, LEO?
- allannienhuis 9y ago
  Among other possibilities, they might work in the criminal justice system. I guess it's possible they might have been incarcerated in all of those places, but that doesn't seem as likely to me :)
  - rys 9y ago
    It says right there in the post that they've been locked up.
    - allannienhuis 9y ago
      you're right - I missed that in the middle of the comment.
- portofcall 9y ago
  That level of recidivism is most commonly associated with drug offenses, either as a user or a dealer, or both. Edit I’m not judging them, just pointing out the most likely cause of being incarcerated so frequently in the USA.
mattynice 9y ago
I doubt this program would be offered to those being charged with violent and serious crimes, cases where you're held without bail.
- phaedradiana 9y ago
  We are starting with non violent offenders, who make up 2/3 of the jail population.
  - digitalmaster 9y ago
    This is not the first time I've seen this ratio but it still blows my mind. It's, of course, unsurprising given that although it's a huge waste of tax payer resources they're a handful of ppl that actually profit lavishly from having this many ppl, who pose no physical threat to society, locked up. I bet that these ppl will be your biggest obstacles. You should operate with the expectation that they will do everything in their power to protect their intrest. "Saving taxpayers money" literally means "removing it from their bottom line". That said, I wish you much success! I wish more startups figured out creative ways to align their business models with the real issues affecting society.
  - bb88 9y ago
    If it helps, I think the best phrase I ever heard on jail overcrowding comes from a politician in Kentucky who said (and I'm paraphrasing): "We need to figure out who we're afraid of and who we're angry at." I wish you guys all the best.
  - hnaccy 9y ago
    You're not counting state prisons, violent offenders are nearly half of the total US prison population. Why would I have faith in your start up if you can't even get this right?
    - rrradical 9y ago
      jail != prison
mattigames 9y ago
Yep; for experiments like this to work you need a judicial system with a level of pragmatism that doesn't exist in the US; that is, to give some very high value to the ability of the non-repeated offenders to go back to e.g. support their children economically or go to college, etc; so any outliers who do go back to crime are seen as outliers and the work is done towards spotting those criminals earlier in the experiment rather than closing the experiment all together. But like I said is a level of cool-headedness uncommon in the US judicial system and in general a country where many politicians win elections through emotional manipulation.
- hnal943 9y ago
  That level of judgment is actively discouraged and labeled "profiling".
- ljm 9y ago
  Or not necessarily pragmatism, but a shift in focus from overbearing justice (commonly seen as retribution and punishment, or more generally some kind of revenge) to rehabilitation and giving people the resources they need to get out of crime, rather than ostracizing them or putting them to manual labour for pennies an hour. In this sense Promise is being pragmatic because it can't transform the American attitude to crime all by itself (the punishment of which doubles up as a profit motive for the prison industry), but it can attempt to make one aspect of it less shitty. However, it is miles away from ideal. Coming from a European perspective I find it utterly perplexing that a society would not only accept high rates of incarceration but also support venture capital to optimize that status quo. Because that's what is being offered - making it affordable for poor people to go into custody, as opposed to lobbying against private prisons and extreme sentences for trivial crimes, and disentangling this horrific 'tough on crime' narrative that has taken hold over the past decades. How on earth is it positive to see an opportunity for profit in all the people being locked up before trial and to what end will that investment be pursued? It's fascinating that many viewpoints from the US are so exceptional in their notion that they completely ignore how systems in other countries tackle the problem without generating a criminal underclass.
  - 9y ago
phaedradiana 9y ago
Thank you!
fillskills 9y ago
Can this be addressed by having clear metrics available early and often on the clients?
- cx42net 9y ago
  I totally agree with you! Not necessarily on the clients, but in general, it would be really interesting, and even important. This would show that the hypothetical "one that killed an ederly couple" is one member out of the, say, 250k members that are in this program. By having public numbers, it would show the benefits vs problems and provide a more empathic view on it.
Bombthecat 9y ago
In Germany we have similar programs. No one is talking about to stop them...

by cubano 9y ago

blattimwind 9y ago

> I've been to at least 10 different county jails and to Florida State Prison twice How exactly did you manage that?

grogenaut 9y ago
Simple Guess: Laywer, LEO?
allannienhuis 9y ago
Among other possibilities, they might work in the criminal justice system. I guess it's possible they might have been incarcerated in all of those places, but that doesn't seem as likely to me :)
- rys 9y ago
  It says right there in the post that they've been locked up.
  - allannienhuis 9y ago
    you're right - I missed that in the middle of the comment.
portofcall 9y ago
That level of recidivism is most commonly associated with drug offenses, either as a user or a dealer, or both. Edit I’m not judging them, just pointing out the most likely cause of being incarcerated so frequently in the USA.

mattynice 9y ago

I doubt this program would be offered to those being charged with violent and serious crimes, cases where you're held without bail.

phaedradiana 9y ago
We are starting with non violent offenders, who make up 2/3 of the jail population.
- digitalmaster 9y ago
  This is not the first time I've seen this ratio but it still blows my mind. It's, of course, unsurprising given that although it's a huge waste of tax payer resources they're a handful of ppl that actually profit lavishly from having this many ppl, who pose no physical threat to society, locked up. I bet that these ppl will be your biggest obstacles. You should operate with the expectation that they will do everything in their power to protect their intrest. "Saving taxpayers money" literally means "removing it from their bottom line". That said, I wish you much success! I wish more startups figured out creative ways to align their business models with the real issues affecting society.
- bb88 9y ago
  If it helps, I think the best phrase I ever heard on jail overcrowding comes from a politician in Kentucky who said (and I'm paraphrasing): "We need to figure out who we're afraid of and who we're angry at." I wish you guys all the best.
- hnaccy 9y ago
  You're not counting state prisons, violent offenders are nearly half of the total US prison population. Why would I have faith in your start up if you can't even get this right?
  - rrradical 9y ago
    jail != prison

mattigames 9y ago

Yep; for experiments like this to work you need a judicial system with a level of pragmatism that doesn't exist in the US; that is, to give some very high value to the ability of the non-repeated offenders to go back to e.g. support their children economically or go to college, etc; so any outliers who do go back to crime are seen as outliers and the work is done towards spotting those criminals earlier in the experiment rather than closing the experiment all together. But like I said is a level of cool-headedness uncommon in the US judicial system and in general a country where many politicians win elections through emotional manipulation.

hnal943 9y ago
That level of judgment is actively discouraged and labeled "profiling".
ljm 9y ago
Or not necessarily pragmatism, but a shift in focus from overbearing justice (commonly seen as retribution and punishment, or more generally some kind of revenge) to rehabilitation and giving people the resources they need to get out of crime, rather than ostracizing them or putting them to manual labour for pennies an hour. In this sense Promise is being pragmatic because it can't transform the American attitude to crime all by itself (the punishment of which doubles up as a profit motive for the prison industry), but it can attempt to make one aspect of it less shitty. However, it is miles away from ideal. Coming from a European perspective I find it utterly perplexing that a society would not only accept high rates of incarceration but also support venture capital to optimize that status quo. Because that's what is being offered - making it affordable for poor people to go into custody, as opposed to lobbying against private prisons and extreme sentences for trivial crimes, and disentangling this horrific 'tough on crime' narrative that has taken hold over the past decades. How on earth is it positive to see an opportunity for profit in all the people being locked up before trial and to what end will that investment be pursued? It's fascinating that many viewpoints from the US are so exceptional in their notion that they completely ignore how systems in other countries tackle the problem without generating a criminal underclass.
- 9y ago

phaedradiana 9y ago

Thank you!

fillskills 9y ago

Can this be addressed by having clear metrics available early and often on the clients?

cx42net 9y ago
I totally agree with you! Not necessarily on the clients, but in general, it would be really interesting, and even important. This would show that the hypothetical "one that killed an ederly couple" is one member out of the, say, 250k members that are in this program. By having public numbers, it would show the benefits vs problems and provide a more empathic view on it.

Bombthecat 9y ago

In Germany we have similar programs. No one is talking about to stop them...