4 ms·

Ask HN: Canadian looking for advice on working for a US startup without a degree

14 points by tothevalley 16y ago

Hi HN, I'm a Canadian software developer without any sort of degree. I have been programming since I was 8 and never attended a university, instead choosing to start my career right out of high school. I freelanced for two years before joining a Canadian startup where I worked for an additional 2.5 years. I have been fairly successful up to this point, with a few widely used open source libraries and am being actively recruited by a number Canadian companies. Ideally I'd like to join an early stage startup in one of the US hubs. I don't seem to qualify for either TN status or an H1-b visa because I lack the degree. I'd really appreciate any advice you may have. Thanks!

vineet 16y ago
One option, if you are good at what you do, is if you can get a 'treaty' company to say they want you. I need to confirm with our lawyer, but if we said that you would be helpful in building our company, all you would need to do is pass an interview with the US consulate. I am not sure if there is a list of treaty companies available, but there should be a way of finding them.
- tothevalley 16y ago
  Could you elaborate on what you mean by "treaty company"? I looked around but all I could find were mentions of US treaty companies set up in Thailand. Is there a similar thing for the US?
  - vineet 16y ago
    The background details are boring. But if you want to look into more about it - lookup 'treaty visa'. A Canadian running a company under this visa, should be able to get you in if he feels like you are an asset. E-mail me if you want to talk: vineet at company-name.com
    - tothevalley 16y ago
      Ah that's very interesting. I'll look into it and may take you up on the offer. Thanks!
kitcar 16y ago
I am not an immigration lawyer, but one thing I've heard is you could setup a corporation in Canada, and then sell consulting services to a US startup. That way they don't have to deal with the fact that you're not a US Citizen for payroll purposes, as they just pay you like any other vendor. You can work remotely / travel to the US for periods of a few weeks at a time, working out of their offices - sublet apartments from craigslist for a month or two at a time, then return back to Canada. I believe there is a US visa you need to get to do this, under the guise you are working for a foreign business conducting biz in the US. If the startup takes off, you will be integral enough to the process that they will (hopefully) hire an immigration lawyer to figure out how to get you into the country for longer periods of time and pay you directly. If it doesn't take off, probably best that they didn't issue your VISA after all... I know of a few people who got in from eastern europe to the US that way... again, I am not a lawyer though, and therefore don't know if what these guys did was legal or not, just repeating what I heard...
newy 16y ago
drop me a line - euwyn at opzi.com
- tothevalley 16y ago
  Done!
faramarz 16y ago
Go as a visitor for 6 months and maybe you'll find a wife? :P j/k Have you already found a job? If you manage to get an offer and the company really sees you as an asset, they may be willing to hire as a consultant on paper and not as the engineer/developer that you are. (probably best if you personally know the execs/founders) This essentially enables you to qualify for the TN status without a degree. But you must demonstrate domain expertise and enough experience in the field to sway the border officer. Business Consultants and (Systems Analysts) are the two NAFTA approved jobs for which you don't need a degree. There may be others, and the conditions may be stricter than normal, so I recommend consulting a lawyer about this. Hope someone with first hand experience chimes in for a better answer, Goodluck!
- jlees 16y ago
  Your comment on a wife is made in jest, but it's the same advice I've heard from respected lawyers and others experienced in immigration here. It really is the easiest way, even though there's a wait and plenty of paperwork still involved. :/
- dotBen 16y ago
  TN'er working in US here (also without degree but in a different category) You need a degree to work as an engineer category for the TN unless you have a Post Secondary Diploma or a Post Secondary Certificate + 3 years experience. From my understanding if you qualify for this section you can be employed, you don't need to be a consultant (which is actually more trick to then get). See http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/en/view.aspx?x=343&mtpiID=147#Ap1603.D.1 http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/en/view.aspx?x=343&mtpiID... for the categories and requirements (which despite not being a .gov domain is the official site for this, as linked to by state.gov) You need to get a lawyer, or preferably, the company you want to work for does - applying for a visa is tricky and if you really mess up (say the wrong thing, etc) they can stamp your passport with a "do not enter USA ever again" stamp.
  - RBr 16y ago
    Lawyers are handy - just don't get scammed by one of the shops that specialize in this if you go that route. I'd get a referral from a good accountant to see a good immigration lawyer - those folks all play golf together. As for the "do not enter USA ever again" stamp... they don't use that as often as we fear they do. You could very easily be questioned more frequently when you cross the boarder, but as long as customs / homeland security is sure that you're not going to be taking a penny out of their economy, they'll just use the "application denied" stamp rather then "do not import" stamp.
RBr 16y ago
1) Are you sure you want to leave Canada? There are a TON of awesome startups with a lot of opportunity in Canada. Maybe you just need to relocate to a hub such as Vancouver, Calgary or Toronto? Also, did you know that the Eastern provinces have some crazy tax and startup capital advantages for starting your own tech / net related business? 2) Your best bet would be to gain employment by a company that has offices in both the U.S. and Canada. Then, with the help of your company, you could obtain a transfer visa: http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/usa_visa.asp#transfer http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/usa_visa.asp#transf... Many companies with offices in both Canada and the U.S. aren't in the "startup" category. You could either accept working for a larger company or find a (somewhat more difficult) U.S. startup that is willing to start a Canadian branch for you. Opening a U.S. company in a province such as Alberta has a number of advantages beyond just employing someone as talented as you are. 3) Some certs qualify you for a "specialized" degree. Since you didn't go the education route, going the cert route might not be a bad idea if you make a wrong turn anyway. Obtaining a high level cert (even quickly) may be an easy way in. http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/nafta.asp http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/nafta.asp Specifically: "Computer Systems Analyst Baccalaureate or Licenciatura degree; or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post Secondary Certificate and three years' experience." Note the Post Secondary Certificate in there. 4) Contract. You can "contract" for a U.S. based company, work there for months at a time if required and not put a full-time strain on the startup. Reliable, competent off-site employees and "virtual offices" are the new black in startup life.
- dotBen 16y ago
  You can "contract" for a U.S. based company, work there for months at a time Not technically legal. Just saying.
  - pedalpete 16y ago
    Not technically illegal either. Depending on the set-up. Though the 'work for months at a time' thing is suspicious. But I believe it depends on how the contract is laid-out.
- sdp 16y ago

14 points by tothevalley 16y ago

vineet 16y ago

One option, if you are good at what you do, is if you can get a 'treaty' company to say they want you. I need to confirm with our lawyer, but if we said that you would be helpful in building our company, all you would need to do is pass an interview with the US consulate. I am not sure if there is a list of treaty companies available, but there should be a way of finding them.

tothevalley 16y ago
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "treaty company"? I looked around but all I could find were mentions of US treaty companies set up in Thailand. Is there a similar thing for the US?
- vineet 16y ago
  The background details are boring. But if you want to look into more about it - lookup 'treaty visa'. A Canadian running a company under this visa, should be able to get you in if he feels like you are an asset. E-mail me if you want to talk: vineet at company-name.com
  - tothevalley 16y ago
    Ah that's very interesting. I'll look into it and may take you up on the offer. Thanks!

kitcar 16y ago

I am not an immigration lawyer, but one thing I've heard is you could setup a corporation in Canada, and then sell consulting services to a US startup. That way they don't have to deal with the fact that you're not a US Citizen for payroll purposes, as they just pay you like any other vendor. You can work remotely / travel to the US for periods of a few weeks at a time, working out of their offices - sublet apartments from craigslist for a month or two at a time, then return back to Canada. I believe there is a US visa you need to get to do this, under the guise you are working for a foreign business conducting biz in the US. If the startup takes off, you will be integral enough to the process that they will (hopefully) hire an immigration lawyer to figure out how to get you into the country for longer periods of time and pay you directly. If it doesn't take off, probably best that they didn't issue your VISA after all... I know of a few people who got in from eastern europe to the US that way... again, I am not a lawyer though, and therefore don't know if what these guys did was legal or not, just repeating what I heard...

newy 16y ago

drop me a line - euwyn at opzi.com

tothevalley 16y ago
Done!

faramarz 16y ago

Go as a visitor for 6 months and maybe you'll find a wife? :P j/k Have you already found a job? If you manage to get an offer and the company really sees you as an asset, they may be willing to hire as a consultant on paper and not as the engineer/developer that you are. (probably best if you personally know the execs/founders) This essentially enables you to qualify for the TN status without a degree. But you must demonstrate domain expertise and enough experience in the field to sway the border officer. Business Consultants and (Systems Analysts) are the two NAFTA approved jobs for which you don't need a degree. There may be others, and the conditions may be stricter than normal, so I recommend consulting a lawyer about this. Hope someone with first hand experience chimes in for a better answer, Goodluck!

jlees 16y ago
Your comment on a wife is made in jest, but it's the same advice I've heard from respected lawyers and others experienced in immigration here. It really is the easiest way, even though there's a wait and plenty of paperwork still involved. :/
dotBen 16y ago
TN'er working in US here (also without degree but in a different category) You need a degree to work as an engineer category for the TN unless you have a Post Secondary Diploma or a Post Secondary Certificate + 3 years experience. From my understanding if you qualify for this section you can be employed, you don't need to be a consultant (which is actually more trick to then get). See http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/en/view.aspx?x=343&mtpiID=147#Ap1603.D.1 http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org/en/view.aspx?x=343&mtpiID... for the categories and requirements (which despite not being a .gov domain is the official site for this, as linked to by state.gov) You need to get a lawyer, or preferably, the company you want to work for does - applying for a visa is tricky and if you really mess up (say the wrong thing, etc) they can stamp your passport with a "do not enter USA ever again" stamp.
- RBr 16y ago
  Lawyers are handy - just don't get scammed by one of the shops that specialize in this if you go that route. I'd get a referral from a good accountant to see a good immigration lawyer - those folks all play golf together. As for the "do not enter USA ever again" stamp... they don't use that as often as we fear they do. You could very easily be questioned more frequently when you cross the boarder, but as long as customs / homeland security is sure that you're not going to be taking a penny out of their economy, they'll just use the "application denied" stamp rather then "do not import" stamp.

RBr 16y ago

1) Are you sure you want to leave Canada? There are a TON of awesome startups with a lot of opportunity in Canada. Maybe you just need to relocate to a hub such as Vancouver, Calgary or Toronto? Also, did you know that the Eastern provinces have some crazy tax and startup capital advantages for starting your own tech / net related business? 2) Your best bet would be to gain employment by a company that has offices in both the U.S. and Canada. Then, with the help of your company, you could obtain a transfer visa: http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/usa_visa.asp#transfer http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/usa_visa.asp#transf... Many companies with offices in both Canada and the U.S. aren't in the "startup" category. You could either accept working for a larger company or find a (somewhat more difficult) U.S. startup that is willing to start a Canadian branch for you. Opening a U.S. company in a province such as Alberta has a number of advantages beyond just employing someone as talented as you are. 3) Some certs qualify you for a "specialized" degree. Since you didn't go the education route, going the cert route might not be a bad idea if you make a wrong turn anyway. Obtaining a high level cert (even quickly) may be an easy way in. http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/nafta.asp http://www.consular.canada.usembassy.gov/nafta.asp Specifically: "Computer Systems Analyst Baccalaureate or Licenciatura degree; or Post-Secondary Diploma or Post Secondary Certificate and three years' experience." Note the Post Secondary Certificate in there. 4) Contract. You can "contract" for a U.S. based company, work there for months at a time if required and not put a full-time strain on the startup. Reliable, competent off-site employees and "virtual offices" are the new black in startup life.

dotBen 16y ago
You can "contract" for a U.S. based company, work there for months at a time Not technically legal. Just saying.
- pedalpete 16y ago
  Not technically illegal either. Depending on the set-up. Though the 'work for months at a time' thing is suspicious. But I believe it depends on how the contract is laid-out.
sdp 16y ago