10 ms·

Scientists suspect a link between the digestive system and problems with sleep

159 points by devy 9y ago

LinuxBender 9y ago
I can vouch for this. I have always had sleep issues and over a long period of time and experimenting, found that I could calm the bacteria by giving them the right amount of fiber and simple proteins to work on, while avoiding sugar. If I deprive them of nutrients, they release something into my blood that increases anxiety. I have yet to figure out what this chemical is. I used to think it was a blood sugar problem, but after a lot of testing, determined my blood sugar was fine. It turns out that 700 trillion life forms in the gut can wreak havoc if they are not taken care of. And to think ... I said I don't want any pets. Turns out, I have 700 trillion of them.
- cpncrunch 9y ago
  Have you ruled out psychological factors (which are probably more likely)? It's impossible to know for sure without doing a placebo controlled trial on yourself. I have found that removing HFCS from my diet (basically, fizzy pop) and eating probiotic yogurt seems to mostly cure my mild IBS. I still get IBS due to stress, but don't seem to get it during non-stressful daily life any more. Of course, it still could be the placebo effect...it's hard to know for sure. It never affected my sleep though. The only time I would get anxiety would be due to an imminent bowel movement.
  - cjbillington 9y ago
    With the HFCS, maybe you have moderate fructose malabsorption. Something like 30% of people do, and reducing or eliminating fructose helps them.
    - cpncrunch 9y ago
      Yes, that's what I suspect. Even if it's just coincidence or placebo, fizzy pop is pretty bad for health on many counts.
  - LinuxBender 9y ago
    I have actually done extensive controlled tests on myself for a couple decades now. That is not to say I have all the facts. There are still many unknowns that I would like to eventually figure out, I just simply don't have the tools at my disposal and functional lab tests are time consuming.
- lr4444lr 9y ago
  Why impute that to the bacteria? Sugar consumption supposedly facilitates tryptophan transport in the absence of other competing amino acids, which in turn boosts serotonin. That effect might not necessarily show up in an insulin/blood sugar imbalance.
  - LinuxBender 9y ago
    That is a good point. I should add that I take about 75mg of each amino acid daily, plus extra l-glutamine a few hours later, as the abundance of l-glutamine blocks the absorption of the other amino acids. I do this early in the day, so more of them should have been processed by the evening time.
- Vekz 9y ago
  I have a similar experience. I thought it was blood sugar related as well and started dinner later. Through a food diary and experimentation. I found that I got best sleep results when I had a high fiber meal in the evening. Having a bowl of steel cut oatmeal in the evening has helped significantly. I have had good success with fibrous vegetable salads as well.
  - Jeff_Brown 9y ago
    Morning oatmeal makes me intolerably sleepy. To think that that could be a feature, not a bug!
- acct1771 9y ago
  I normally avoid spouting off, but you seem like you're looking for an answer. My reading indicates this is inflammation. If the bacteria have nothing to eat, they eat you. Inflammation is not always localized. It can move. And there's lot of indications that many neural problems (Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc) are inflammation-related.
  - andai 9y ago
    What dietary changes can be made to reduce inflammation?
    - thedoops 9y ago
      Less sugars, carbs, and highly glycemic foods such as wheat, rice, and corn will probably make the most difference. Basically avoid the sorts of things in a Little Debbie snack. It'll improve your skin a lot too!
      - vondur 9y ago
        Man, I love the Little Debbies snack cakes.
    - Flow 9y ago
      What other said plus L-Glutamine seems to be part of protecting the intestens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine > On the level of tissue, glutamine plays a role in maintaining the normal integrity of the intestinal mucosa.,[12] but randomised trials provide no evidence of any benefit of nutritional supplementation.[12] It's cheap to buy and try if it changes anything for you.
    - acct1771 9y ago
      Antiinflammatory foods are well established online, certain fruits and things (cinnamon, figs, etc). But the ones people miss a lot: yogurt (to empower good bacteria cultures), and cannabis (yes, marijuana).
- goldfeld 9y ago
  But they are not your pets.. you are their pet.
  - LinuxBender 9y ago
    Good point! I hope they take good care of me, since I am taking better care of them.
cpncrunch 9y ago
The article doesn't present any evidence at all, it's all just speculation.
- rainieri 9y ago
  It's true. If you get parasites from a pet like a cat you'll find yourself waking up at around 5 AM every day.
  - Finnucane 9y ago
    If you have a cat, you'll be waking up at 5 am every day.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  This one references a study of modern day hunter gatherers and hunter farmers and found no modern day sleeping issues of insomnia or intermittent sleep with no mention of diet, only finding some signals with hours of daylight and temperature. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...
trhway 9y ago
have just taken a SIBO breath test. First hand observed the rise of breath hydrogen and methane. The biological machinery is that [bad overgrown] bacteria in the gut produce the gas with some of the gas making into the blood and after that into the lungs. That rise as usual coincided with small attack of coughing, running nose and a bit of anxiety and loss of concentration (was trying to work during the 3hr test). When it happens at night, it does makes falling to sleep harder. Anyway, passed the test with flying colors :) - hit 78ppm hydrogen and 29ppm methane levels (at 40 and 60 minute marks, ie. before colonic response, etc) where 20ppm of either alone is already enough for SIBO diagnosis. So it isn't just imagination.
DoreenMichele 9y ago
Towards the end, this article has a bunch of random suggestions you could try. I will caution readers that randomly trying stuff is about the worst way to do this. If you want to self experiment, at a minimum, start a food diary. Record what you eat, when you eat it and track any health metrics you hope to change, whether sleep or something else. Establish a baseline for your current normal. Then try no more than one new thing every week or two to establish whether it does anything and, if so, what effect it seems to have. Supplements are easier to work with at the start because it is the best way to try to isolate a factor. Dietary changes are much harder to understand because they always involve at least two changes: the new food you are adding and the discontinuation of whatever you used to eat. This always leaves the question "Is the new food helping? Or is the effect from removing the old food?" That's before getting into the issue that most things you eat are complicated products containing multiple ingredients.
- iamcasen 9y ago
  Exactly. It's further complicated by the fact that you really need to stick to a change for 2 months or more to notice any lasting effects. From what I've seen with folks struggling with SIBO and Candida among other things was that cutting out sugar completely is probably the first and easiest place to start. No sugar at all, especially added sugar like you might find in a pasta sauce or other store-bought foods. Do that for 3 months straight and then eat something with sugar after that. You'll probably feel sick.
  - nightfly 9y ago
    > cutting out sugar completely is probably the first and easiest place to start This would represent a radical and complete change in diet in me and probably many other people. Since it would mean having to change from most cheap preprepared versions of common foods such as pasta sauce, like you mentioned, and even regular store-bought bread. These foods would either more considerably more expensive or time-intensive versions that don't include sugar, or replacing them with completely unlike foods. It's in no way an "easy" change, and involves so much alteration that I doubt the significance of the "no sugar" component matters as much as the other collateral changes.
gt_ 9y ago
I am experiencing basically this right now. I am otherwise usually very healthy but have been having digestive problems for about 6 months. I realized last month that my newfound sleep problems seem to correlate with my stomach upsets. It was not obvious but after realizing it, I got some meds from my doctor for my stomach problem and my sleep problems went away as well! My doctor is trying to play things safe and actually had me do a barium swallow test at the hospital this morning. This required me to not take the stomach medication for a few days and sure enough the sleep problems came back! One thing that freaks me out is I normally have a very healthy and balanced diet. Still not sure where the stomach problems are coming from.
- cosmic_shame 9y ago
  What medication were you prescribed?
throwawaysecops 9y ago
Did a retreat. We ate at 6AM and 11AM. No food after Noon. Fasting for 18 hours a day, as we were designed. No stomach problems, felt great, real and regular. Problem is, we eat a feast each and every night and were never meant to. Our success is killing us. Slowly and in a variety of horrific manners.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  The natural state of humans in our early days may have involved the things you claim -- it's a tough claim to back up. But it almost certainly also involved a much shorter and more violent life than we enjoy today, when "our success is killing us".
- taneq 9y ago
  > Our success is killing us. Slowly and in a variety of horrific manners. As opposed to our 'natural state', which would kill us rapidly and in a variety of horrific manners.
- keyle 9y ago
  "as we were designed". Sorry what does that mean? Do you think that 50 odd generations before us aren't changing our DNA with habit changes, while living in a different country for 2 years does? Also we were designed?
  - throwawaysecops 9y ago
    Do you find asking stupid questions productive? Honestly curious about that one. Also, this question I ask is a leading one. Know the difference. Design can be considered "doing" by an organism in its change for survivial. Our "doing" made us be efficient with food. It's not like it was laying around or something back when we evolved, like it is nowadays. Doesn't matter if we have an excess of food laying around today, DNA-wise. It takes generations to evolve new organisms that can deal with glut or scarcity. We are evolved the way we are and unlike the dork who wants citation about it, you aren't going to get what you want just by demanding it. Only doing will show the truth. Talking about it is pointless and counterproductive to the end goal of reality, which is basically the efficient search for interesting.
gxs 9y ago
Can anyone recommend a good probiotic product? There are tons of them, and the article doesn't really mention anything specifically.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  Isn't just plain yogurt a pretty good probiotic? Or did you mean a pill with a live culture or something?
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  I like mango lassi, but for less sugar one should try something like plain Greek yogurt or plain yogurt with probiotics and add fresh fruit for flavor and the fiber described in the article. It's probably not so much important for a particular type as far as we know as just to get some and experiment with what you find palatable and convenient and works. Most of the flavored yogurts have way too much added sugar for the average American diet.
- deepnet 9y ago
  Kefir - a symbiote that can get the probiotics through the stomach more effictively than yoghurt alone. According to this BBC research http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38800977 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38800977
- calinet6 9y ago
  There are so many. My self-treatment for suspected SIBO and diagnosed Microscopic Colitis is Pepto Bismol Max (1 dose) followed by a strong probiotic 12 hours later. The probiotic I've had success with is this one: https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-extra-care-probiotic-150-billion.html https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-extra-care-probioti... I really can't back this up, it's just the only thing that works for me consistently. That and meditation and yoga to help get the anxiety under control. But (if you'll allow me to digress) the anxiety is most definitely influenced more by the state of the gut than other factors, in my experience; particularly (as in the original post) if I'm hungry or haven't "fed the bacteria." Anxiety spikes off the charts until I eat some simple proteins and it makes it past my stomach. The first grumble of the stomach emptying, and the anxiety disappears; I feel entirely normal again instantly, no joke. I realize that's weird, but it's my clear cut experience. Back to the medical pinball machine with me...
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
Well, the "weight" on the parasympathetic nervous system is important for sleep and other low-arousal states so... uh... yeah? I guess?
AnatMl2 9y ago
I've been experimenting for the last couple of months and tried almost everything, what's suggested in the article. The best option for me was not eating for a couple of hours before the bedtime and no sports (even the relaxing yoga would keep me awake). Although it is individual and I have to agree with the food diary suggestions: it is the best way to find out how your body reacts to the specific foods.
foxyv 9y ago
I used to have trouble sleeping then I found the secret that works best for my body/brain. An hour on my bicycle riding up to the lake and I'll sleep like a log. The hard part is not falling asleep after my ride. No exercise and I don't get good sleep and have stomach and anxiety problems. Go figure.
ohiovr 9y ago
My gut is telling me it is time to consume about 500 calories just like my medicine literature says I should have done before I took it. If I don't eat I will have to listen to my gut churning and growling all night long.

159 points by devy 9y ago

I can vouch for this. I have always had sleep issues and over a long period of time and experimenting, found that I could calm the bacteria by giving them the right amount of fiber and simple proteins to work on, while avoiding sugar. If I deprive them of nutrients, they release something into my blood that increases anxiety. I have yet to figure out what this chemical is. I used to think it was a blood sugar problem, but after a lot of testing, determined my blood sugar was fine. It turns out that 700 trillion life forms in the gut can wreak havoc if they are not taken care of. And to think ... I said I don't want any pets. Turns out, I have 700 trillion of them.

cpncrunch 9y ago
Have you ruled out psychological factors (which are probably more likely)? It's impossible to know for sure without doing a placebo controlled trial on yourself. I have found that removing HFCS from my diet (basically, fizzy pop) and eating probiotic yogurt seems to mostly cure my mild IBS. I still get IBS due to stress, but don't seem to get it during non-stressful daily life any more. Of course, it still could be the placebo effect...it's hard to know for sure. It never affected my sleep though. The only time I would get anxiety would be due to an imminent bowel movement.
- cjbillington 9y ago
  With the HFCS, maybe you have moderate fructose malabsorption. Something like 30% of people do, and reducing or eliminating fructose helps them.
  - cpncrunch 9y ago
    Yes, that's what I suspect. Even if it's just coincidence or placebo, fizzy pop is pretty bad for health on many counts.
- LinuxBender 9y ago
  I have actually done extensive controlled tests on myself for a couple decades now. That is not to say I have all the facts. There are still many unknowns that I would like to eventually figure out, I just simply don't have the tools at my disposal and functional lab tests are time consuming.
lr4444lr 9y ago
Why impute that to the bacteria? Sugar consumption supposedly facilitates tryptophan transport in the absence of other competing amino acids, which in turn boosts serotonin. That effect might not necessarily show up in an insulin/blood sugar imbalance.
- LinuxBender 9y ago
  That is a good point. I should add that I take about 75mg of each amino acid daily, plus extra l-glutamine a few hours later, as the abundance of l-glutamine blocks the absorption of the other amino acids. I do this early in the day, so more of them should have been processed by the evening time.
Vekz 9y ago
I have a similar experience. I thought it was blood sugar related as well and started dinner later. Through a food diary and experimentation. I found that I got best sleep results when I had a high fiber meal in the evening. Having a bowl of steel cut oatmeal in the evening has helped significantly. I have had good success with fibrous vegetable salads as well.
- Jeff_Brown 9y ago
  Morning oatmeal makes me intolerably sleepy. To think that that could be a feature, not a bug!
acct1771 9y ago
I normally avoid spouting off, but you seem like you're looking for an answer. My reading indicates this is inflammation. If the bacteria have nothing to eat, they eat you. Inflammation is not always localized. It can move. And there's lot of indications that many neural problems (Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc) are inflammation-related.
- andai 9y ago
  What dietary changes can be made to reduce inflammation?
  - thedoops 9y ago
    Less sugars, carbs, and highly glycemic foods such as wheat, rice, and corn will probably make the most difference. Basically avoid the sorts of things in a Little Debbie snack. It'll improve your skin a lot too!
    - vondur 9y ago
      Man, I love the Little Debbies snack cakes.
  - Flow 9y ago
    What other said plus L-Glutamine seems to be part of protecting the intestens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine > On the level of tissue, glutamine plays a role in maintaining the normal integrity of the intestinal mucosa.,[12] but randomised trials provide no evidence of any benefit of nutritional supplementation.[12] It's cheap to buy and try if it changes anything for you.
  - acct1771 9y ago
    Antiinflammatory foods are well established online, certain fruits and things (cinnamon, figs, etc). But the ones people miss a lot: yogurt (to empower good bacteria cultures), and cannabis (yes, marijuana).
goldfeld 9y ago
But they are not your pets.. you are their pet.
- LinuxBender 9y ago
  Good point! I hope they take good care of me, since I am taking better care of them.

cpncrunch 9y ago

The article doesn't present any evidence at all, it's all just speculation.

rainieri 9y ago
It's true. If you get parasites from a pet like a cat you'll find yourself waking up at around 5 AM every day.
- Finnucane 9y ago
  If you have a cat, you'll be waking up at 5 am every day.
stevenwoo 9y ago
This one references a study of modern day hunter gatherers and hunter farmers and found no modern day sleeping issues of insomnia or intermittent sleep with no mention of diet, only finding some signals with hours of daylight and temperature. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...

trhway 9y ago

have just taken a SIBO breath test. First hand observed the rise of breath hydrogen and methane. The biological machinery is that [bad overgrown] bacteria in the gut produce the gas with some of the gas making into the blood and after that into the lungs. That rise as usual coincided with small attack of coughing, running nose and a bit of anxiety and loss of concentration (was trying to work during the 3hr test). When it happens at night, it does makes falling to sleep harder. Anyway, passed the test with flying colors :) - hit 78ppm hydrogen and 29ppm methane levels (at 40 and 60 minute marks, ie. before colonic response, etc) where 20ppm of either alone is already enough for SIBO diagnosis. So it isn't just imagination.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

Towards the end, this article has a bunch of random suggestions you could try. I will caution readers that randomly trying stuff is about the worst way to do this. If you want to self experiment, at a minimum, start a food diary. Record what you eat, when you eat it and track any health metrics you hope to change, whether sleep or something else. Establish a baseline for your current normal. Then try no more than one new thing every week or two to establish whether it does anything and, if so, what effect it seems to have. Supplements are easier to work with at the start because it is the best way to try to isolate a factor. Dietary changes are much harder to understand because they always involve at least two changes: the new food you are adding and the discontinuation of whatever you used to eat. This always leaves the question "Is the new food helping? Or is the effect from removing the old food?" That's before getting into the issue that most things you eat are complicated products containing multiple ingredients.

iamcasen 9y ago
Exactly. It's further complicated by the fact that you really need to stick to a change for 2 months or more to notice any lasting effects. From what I've seen with folks struggling with SIBO and Candida among other things was that cutting out sugar completely is probably the first and easiest place to start. No sugar at all, especially added sugar like you might find in a pasta sauce or other store-bought foods. Do that for 3 months straight and then eat something with sugar after that. You'll probably feel sick.
- nightfly 9y ago
  > cutting out sugar completely is probably the first and easiest place to start This would represent a radical and complete change in diet in me and probably many other people. Since it would mean having to change from most cheap preprepared versions of common foods such as pasta sauce, like you mentioned, and even regular store-bought bread. These foods would either more considerably more expensive or time-intensive versions that don't include sugar, or replacing them with completely unlike foods. It's in no way an "easy" change, and involves so much alteration that I doubt the significance of the "no sugar" component matters as much as the other collateral changes.

gt_ 9y ago

I am experiencing basically this right now. I am otherwise usually very healthy but have been having digestive problems for about 6 months. I realized last month that my newfound sleep problems seem to correlate with my stomach upsets. It was not obvious but after realizing it, I got some meds from my doctor for my stomach problem and my sleep problems went away as well! My doctor is trying to play things safe and actually had me do a barium swallow test at the hospital this morning. This required me to not take the stomach medication for a few days and sure enough the sleep problems came back! One thing that freaks me out is I normally have a very healthy and balanced diet. Still not sure where the stomach problems are coming from.

cosmic_shame 9y ago
What medication were you prescribed?

throwawaysecops 9y ago

Did a retreat. We ate at 6AM and 11AM. No food after Noon. Fasting for 18 hours a day, as we were designed. No stomach problems, felt great, real and regular. Problem is, we eat a feast each and every night and were never meant to. Our success is killing us. Slowly and in a variety of horrific manners.

ubernostrum 9y ago
The natural state of humans in our early days may have involved the things you claim -- it's a tough claim to back up. But it almost certainly also involved a much shorter and more violent life than we enjoy today, when "our success is killing us".
taneq 9y ago
> Our success is killing us. Slowly and in a variety of horrific manners. As opposed to our 'natural state', which would kill us rapidly and in a variety of horrific manners.
keyle 9y ago
"as we were designed". Sorry what does that mean? Do you think that 50 odd generations before us aren't changing our DNA with habit changes, while living in a different country for 2 years does? Also we were designed?
- throwawaysecops 9y ago
  Do you find asking stupid questions productive? Honestly curious about that one. Also, this question I ask is a leading one. Know the difference. Design can be considered "doing" by an organism in its change for survivial. Our "doing" made us be efficient with food. It's not like it was laying around or something back when we evolved, like it is nowadays. Doesn't matter if we have an excess of food laying around today, DNA-wise. It takes generations to evolve new organisms that can deal with glut or scarcity. We are evolved the way we are and unlike the dork who wants citation about it, you aren't going to get what you want just by demanding it. Only doing will show the truth. Talking about it is pointless and counterproductive to the end goal of reality, which is basically the efficient search for interesting.

gxs 9y ago

Can anyone recommend a good probiotic product? There are tons of them, and the article doesn't really mention anything specifically.

wutbrodo 9y ago
Isn't just plain yogurt a pretty good probiotic? Or did you mean a pill with a live culture or something?
stevenwoo 9y ago
I like mango lassi, but for less sugar one should try something like plain Greek yogurt or plain yogurt with probiotics and add fresh fruit for flavor and the fiber described in the article. It's probably not so much important for a particular type as far as we know as just to get some and experiment with what you find palatable and convenient and works. Most of the flavored yogurts have way too much added sugar for the average American diet.
deepnet 9y ago
Kefir - a symbiote that can get the probiotics through the stomach more effictively than yoghurt alone. According to this BBC research http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38800977 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38800977
calinet6 9y ago
There are so many. My self-treatment for suspected SIBO and diagnosed Microscopic Colitis is Pepto Bismol Max (1 dose) followed by a strong probiotic 12 hours later. The probiotic I've had success with is this one: https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-extra-care-probiotic-150-billion.html https://www.renewlife.com/ultimate-flora-extra-care-probioti... I really can't back this up, it's just the only thing that works for me consistently. That and meditation and yoga to help get the anxiety under control. But (if you'll allow me to digress) the anxiety is most definitely influenced more by the state of the gut than other factors, in my experience; particularly (as in the original post) if I'm hungry or haven't "fed the bacteria." Anxiety spikes off the charts until I eat some simple proteins and it makes it past my stomach. The first grumble of the stomach emptying, and the anxiety disappears; I feel entirely normal again instantly, no joke. I realize that's weird, but it's my clear cut experience. Back to the medical pinball machine with me...

eli_gottlieb 9y ago

Well, the "weight" on the parasympathetic nervous system is important for sleep and other low-arousal states so... uh... yeah? I guess?

AnatMl2 9y ago

I've been experimenting for the last couple of months and tried almost everything, what's suggested in the article. The best option for me was not eating for a couple of hours before the bedtime and no sports (even the relaxing yoga would keep me awake). Although it is individual and I have to agree with the food diary suggestions: it is the best way to find out how your body reacts to the specific foods.

foxyv 9y ago

I used to have trouble sleeping then I found the secret that works best for my body/brain. An hour on my bicycle riding up to the lake and I'll sleep like a log. The hard part is not falling asleep after my ride. No exercise and I don't get good sleep and have stomach and anxiety problems. Go figure.

ohiovr 9y ago

My gut is telling me it is time to consume about 500 calories just like my medicine literature says I should have done before I took it. If I don't eat I will have to listen to my gut churning and growling all night long.