4 ms·

I wonder how susceptible these things are to electronic warfware. Complex software-based technology like that seems like a great idea but also like a huge risk.

I wonder how susceptible these things are to electronic warfware. Complex software-based technology like that seems like a great idea but also like a huge risk. In the civilian sector there is nothing that can't be hacked, I wonder what makes them so confident that they can prevent that in military applications. Otherwise it might just take one good virus to take a whole communication network down.

jabl 9y ago
Then again, with a traditional analogue AM or FM radio it's trivial to triangulate the position (and possibly call in an artillery strike on said coordinates or whatever), as well as jamming it with a narrow-band jammer. And without some hw/sw assisted crypto, communication becomes a lot slower. Or then you accept that the enemy can and will overhear what you say. So for better or worse, complex radios based on digital technology is necessary for modern military use.
- ufo 9y ago
  How does a more sophisticated radio avoid having its position triangulated?
  - rasz 9y ago
    low power, spread spectrum, this of course severely limits the range. Example http://www.milspec.ca/radspec/prc-343.html http://www.milspec.ca/radspec/prc-343.html
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  > you accept that the enemy can and will overhear what you say. Enter the Code Talkers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker
  - jabl 9y ago
    Yes, I've seen the movie, thank you very much. Though I wonder whether it would be that useful today, with the state of voice recognition and machine translation technology? Just because you throw away those fancy digital radios doesn't mean that your enemy will forgo modern tech. ;)
Jtsummers 9y ago
Most systems for military/aviation use (my experience is more the latter and some the former) get burned into ROM and changing the ROM requires physical access (usually). So most likely a virus or similar could be counteracted with a reboot unless physical access was achieved by the adversary. In which case, they could do anything else to it too.
- rasz 9y ago
  It doesnt work like that, even GSM "fixed function" DSPs had scratchpad ram area for patches, this is how clever people were able to hack old cellphone hardware for more general purpose usage https://osmocom.org/projects/baseband/wiki/HardwareCalypsoDSP https://osmocom.org/projects/baseband/wiki/HardwareCalypsoDS...
drewpc 9y ago
From a signal standpoint, checkout frequency hopping techniques for jam resistant communications. Specifically, Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) for VHF nets. Automatic Link Establishment (ALE) provides similar advantages for HF as a byproduct, but it's solving quite a different problem.
- johnflan 9y ago
  As far as I remember the FH rate on the SINCGARS was 109 channels per sec, for reference Bluetooth is 2400 channels per sec.
  - rasz 9y ago
    and the purpose was to establish merely a financial/technical barrier to entry for potential attackers at a time realtime grabbing/processing more than one megahertz of bw was $$K expensive. Today $130 gets you 30MHz full duplex radio, $300 60MHz one.

jabl 9y ago

Then again, with a traditional analogue AM or FM radio it's trivial to triangulate the position (and possibly call in an artillery strike on said coordinates or whatever), as well as jamming it with a narrow-band jammer. And without some hw/sw assisted crypto, communication becomes a lot slower. Or then you accept that the enemy can and will overhear what you say. So for better or worse, complex radios based on digital technology is necessary for modern military use.

ufo 9y ago
How does a more sophisticated radio avoid having its position triangulated?
- rasz 9y ago
  low power, spread spectrum, this of course severely limits the range. Example http://www.milspec.ca/radspec/prc-343.html http://www.milspec.ca/radspec/prc-343.html
skookumchuck 9y ago
> you accept that the enemy can and will overhear what you say. Enter the Code Talkers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_talker
- jabl 9y ago
  Yes, I've seen the movie, thank you very much. Though I wonder whether it would be that useful today, with the state of voice recognition and machine translation technology? Just because you throw away those fancy digital radios doesn't mean that your enemy will forgo modern tech. ;)

Jtsummers 9y ago

Most systems for military/aviation use (my experience is more the latter and some the former) get burned into ROM and changing the ROM requires physical access (usually). So most likely a virus or similar could be counteracted with a reboot unless physical access was achieved by the adversary. In which case, they could do anything else to it too.

rasz 9y ago
It doesnt work like that, even GSM "fixed function" DSPs had scratchpad ram area for patches, this is how clever people were able to hack old cellphone hardware for more general purpose usage https://osmocom.org/projects/baseband/wiki/HardwareCalypsoDSP https://osmocom.org/projects/baseband/wiki/HardwareCalypsoDS...

drewpc 9y ago

From a signal standpoint, checkout frequency hopping techniques for jam resistant communications. Specifically, Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) for VHF nets. Automatic Link Establishment (ALE) provides similar advantages for HF as a byproduct, but it's solving quite a different problem.

johnflan 9y ago
As far as I remember the FH rate on the SINCGARS was 109 channels per sec, for reference Bluetooth is 2400 channels per sec.
- rasz 9y ago
  and the purpose was to establish merely a financial/technical barrier to entry for potential attackers at a time realtime grabbing/processing more than one megahertz of bw was $$K expensive. Today $130 gets you 30MHz full duplex radio, $300 60MHz one.