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As a matter of fact, this is news and surprising for most users of Facebook even if it's not for you. By saying that no one should be surprised, are you not ta

As a matter of fact, this is news and surprising for most users of Facebook even if it's not for you. By saying that no one should be surprised, are you not taking the same condescending attitude that you're pointing out in Zuckerberg?

meuk 9y ago
Well, it is extremely naive to think that Facebook does not use all the data they get about you. Then again, most people are very naive about this kind of everyday technology.
- scottmf 9y ago
  That isn’t what this article is about.
- tmalsburg2 9y ago
  That's just your perspective. I live in the Germany where we have very strong data protection laws. Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years?
  - dspillett 9y ago
    > Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? Across international boundaries where those laws may be difficult to enforce because other countries are not in sync with them? Hell yes. Call me cynical, but...
  - deltron3030 9y ago
    Data protection laws are so strong in Germany that they let registration offices sell your data if you don't explicitly opt out. Most people don't even know whats going on and that they have to opt out to avoid that. Or German credit scoring institutions, who are allowed collect data about you even if you don't have any mutual agreement with them.
    - tmalsburg2 9y ago
      I agree with you that not everything is perfect in Germany with respect to data protection. Not even close. However, our data protection laws are uncontroversially stronger than elsewhere (specifically compared to the US), and I'm almost certain that the courts will find that Facebook violated them.
      - deltron3030 9y ago
        Maybe, but what sucks about Germany and the EU is the arbitrary nature of many laws, enabling them to selectively punish those who don't play their game. By not being able to define clear boundaries, you give them the power to rule over who can succeed and who not. Data is what fuels businesses in the end.
        kazen44 9y ago
        > but what sucks about Germany and the EU is the arbitrary nature of many laws, In what way is the law used arbitrarily? I would like some sources for this claim.
        SCHiM 9y ago
        AFAIK the law in the US is much more arbitrary in the sense that a lot of it is case law. Until such a case has been before a jury, and jurisprudence has been established it's basically a coin toss. The thing that may feel arbitrary is simply the fact the laws in Europe actually enforce privacy, whereas a company, and people, form the US expect that these laws are teethless.
    - wsy 9y ago
      German credit scoring institutions collect data on behalf of banks, insurances, etc., and you need to consent that they send data to the credit scoring company. So you are actually consenting. If you never give consent to any such party, the scoring company must not store data about you (and most probably won't, they are tightly observed by data protection agencies). It will become interesting with GDPR, when customers start to revoke their consent to exchange data with credit scoring companies.
  - hobofan 9y ago
    > Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years? In Germany where data-leaks (which are a symptom of insufficient data protection) at telecommunication providers seem to happen on the regular, with no (reported) punishment as a result, yes I think that is a bit naive.
  - mnm1 9y ago
    If you're dealing with large companies, it is. You should assume that. I have no doubt every major company in the world is covering up some serious crimes constantly. And FB has been egregious and it has been covered by the news. Also, why do you expect German laws to protect you from an American company?
- notheguyouthink 9y ago
  More specifically, I think many people are naive about how it can be applied to their lives. Every company tracks you. From what you purchase at target, to broad pattern behavior tracking on the web via ad companies, I think most people know their being tracked at various stages for various reasons. However, is it bad that target knows I like to buy grass fed beef? Probably not. It reveals some things about me, but I am far less concerned, as are most I imagine. This same mindset is what fuels people when they don't care what FB/etc is doing. Not that it's right/wrong, but I think people don't care who knows about their lunch or catpics. Thinking that's all that FB could gain out of it. Humans in general are really bad at thinking long term. Nothing bad happens immediately when you sign up to FB, when you post personal information, when they sell your data, etc. For a lot of FB users, it might be 20 years before they regret their actions. That's just a hard feedback cycle for people.
  - ccozan 9y ago
    You must probably don't know how powerfull this analytics are. Is it possible to correlate and infer all kind of data, based on other signals, what kind of person are you. For example if you drive a bicycle and eat beef, most likely you have a certain income, have a certain family type ( you use same IP!! ) , which means you might have a certain political view and concerns. And this is where targeted manipulation is active, they can drive you in a certain direction. Psychology at it's best. This is how you win an election.
    - notheguyouthink 9y ago
      Agree completely. Does it say much more than my job though? My car? my public travel patterns? etc. There's a reasonable about of information about me that I expect cameras on every corner to know. Giving my information to FB/etc though? That's another story.
- jpz 9y ago
  Most people are extremely nontechnical and are inadvertently ignorant rather than naive. People that don’t have jobs working with data, who are not technical or mathematical, aren’t going to know.
  - dspillett 9y ago
    Are people not taught about "stranger danger" as kids anymore? Why do they just trust that someone won't abuse the information that they hand over?
- mtgx 9y ago
  It's both naivety and lack of understanding, which as I've said before is by far the #1 problem with getting people to want more privacy. It's really not that they "don't care" about privacy, even if they themselves think that's what it is. They usually say that because they don't understand the 1,000 horrific ways in which that data about them could be exploited, from personal blackmail situations, to identity fraud, to manipulating elections, to using it against them in court in a possible future conflict with law enforcement, and in many other situations. I've seen people who are typically quite "anti-privacy" because "they want to benefit from Alexa, Google Assistant" and other such gimmicks, and "aren't scared" if Google or Amazon holds their data, because after all it's not the government holding it (ha! good one). But now they've deleted their Facebook accounts, because they're finally beginning to understand the implications of these companies holding all of this data about them and how it could be abused. And it's still early days. It's only going to get worse from here, as we see more such abuses using Facebook, Google, Amazon's data, carriers', and other data hoarders' data.
realusername 9y ago
If people just followed a little bit the news, we had the PRISM scandals going on for years, it's hard to not notice that.
bob_theslob646 9y ago
This is not news. (2010)[http://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-feds-collect-facebook-social-media-data-why-are-you-surprised/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-feds-collect-facebook-socia...] (2010)[https://www.technologyreview.com/s/418971/facebook-personal-data-a-security-risk/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/418971/facebook-personal-...] (2012)[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/facebook-is-using-you.html?mtrref=undefined&gwh=923FEF313682DFFF689EFB75B61C2F81&gwt=pay&assetType=opinion http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/facebook-is...] (2011)[https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/student-campaigns-against-facebook-data-collection-2374072.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...] (2011)[https://techcrunch.com/2011/11/01/researchers-flood-facebook-with-bots-collect-250gb-of-user-data/ https://techcrunch.com/2011/11/01/researchers-flood-facebook...] (2012)[money.cnn.com/2012/03/22/technology/facebook-privacy-changes/index.htm] (2011)[https://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/09/26/facebook-defends-getting-data-from-logged-out-users/ https://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/09/26/facebook-defends-get...] The real discussion to be had is how do you know that the person is actually aware of giving consent, similar to how a recaptcha verifies whether or not you are a human. I see in the future, some sort of test for users, that verifies that they read the terms of service, as a form of consent for the user agreement. Edit: Fixed all urls. All work except, cnn where you have to copy paste.
- archon 9y ago
  > some sort of test for users, that verifies that they read the terms of service, as a form of consent for the user agreement. This will only happen if terms of service get vastly shorter, or if a law is passed that forces it. I would bet that any such measure would absolutely destroy user signup metrics, which means that not only do companies have no financial incentive to take such measures, but they also have an active financial disincentive to make the "I read the TOS, let me sign up now" process any more complicated than they absolutely must. I'm also pretty sure that the everyday user would be pissed about that additional barrier to entry.
- UweSchmidt 9y ago
  There can be no consent for the usage of your data, as it is impossible to grasp in what ways the data will be used exactly, what deep learning algorithms will learn from it and what impact it will have on your life and society as a whole.
freyir 9y ago
> and surprising for most users of Facebook Yeah, but let's be honest, they're dumb fu * * s.
- kingkongjaffa 9y ago
  I mean on average the readership of HN are vastly more likely to be aware and care about their data and identity privacy than the average facebook user. so in this sense you're not wrong.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- loxs 9y ago
  Why do we censor words? Aren't we all adults here? Does HN have a policy about this?
  - to_bpr 9y ago
    We're adults here but that doesn't mean we should pursue a higher level of discourse. If you want cursing or other low content, there's always Reddit.
    - UncreativeCodar 9y ago
      I know it's originally from a Zuckerburg quote but the point is that if you want to call someone a dumbfuck, call them a dumbfuck. Censoring the latter half doesn't somehow elevate the discourse.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - zingmars 9y ago
psyc 9y ago
Well, I was with you right up until the gratuitous equivalence to Zuckerberg.
IncRnd 9y ago
Yes, this is news. However, it really shouldn't surprise any users of facebook that facebook would find ways to monetize their data, being carelessly abusive in the process.

meuk 9y ago

Well, it is extremely naive to think that Facebook does not use all the data they get about you. Then again, most people are very naive about this kind of everyday technology.

scottmf 9y ago
That isn’t what this article is about.
tmalsburg2 9y ago
That's just your perspective. I live in the Germany where we have very strong data protection laws. Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years?
- dspillett 9y ago
  > Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? Across international boundaries where those laws may be difficult to enforce because other countries are not in sync with them? Hell yes. Call me cynical, but...
- deltron3030 9y ago
  Data protection laws are so strong in Germany that they let registration offices sell your data if you don't explicitly opt out. Most people don't even know whats going on and that they have to opt out to avoid that. Or German credit scoring institutions, who are allowed collect data about you even if you don't have any mutual agreement with them.
  - tmalsburg2 9y ago
    I agree with you that not everything is perfect in Germany with respect to data protection. Not even close. However, our data protection laws are uncontroversially stronger than elsewhere (specifically compared to the US), and I'm almost certain that the courts will find that Facebook violated them.
    - deltron3030 9y ago
      Maybe, but what sucks about Germany and the EU is the arbitrary nature of many laws, enabling them to selectively punish those who don't play their game. By not being able to define clear boundaries, you give them the power to rule over who can succeed and who not. Data is what fuels businesses in the end.
      - kazen44 9y ago
        > but what sucks about Germany and the EU is the arbitrary nature of many laws, In what way is the law used arbitrarily? I would like some sources for this claim.
      - SCHiM 9y ago
        AFAIK the law in the US is much more arbitrary in the sense that a lot of it is case law. Until such a case has been before a jury, and jurisprudence has been established it's basically a coin toss. The thing that may feel arbitrary is simply the fact the laws in Europe actually enforce privacy, whereas a company, and people, form the US expect that these laws are teethless.
  - wsy 9y ago
    German credit scoring institutions collect data on behalf of banks, insurances, etc., and you need to consent that they send data to the credit scoring company. So you are actually consenting. If you never give consent to any such party, the scoring company must not store data about you (and most probably won't, they are tightly observed by data protection agencies). It will become interesting with GDPR, when customers start to revoke their consent to exchange data with credit scoring companies.
- hobofan 9y ago
  > Is it natural for people to assume that these laws are broken at such a large scale? And that abuse goes completely unchallenged for years? In Germany where data-leaks (which are a symptom of insufficient data protection) at telecommunication providers seem to happen on the regular, with no (reported) punishment as a result, yes I think that is a bit naive.
- mnm1 9y ago
  If you're dealing with large companies, it is. You should assume that. I have no doubt every major company in the world is covering up some serious crimes constantly. And FB has been egregious and it has been covered by the news. Also, why do you expect German laws to protect you from an American company?
notheguyouthink 9y ago
More specifically, I think many people are naive about how it can be applied to their lives. Every company tracks you. From what you purchase at target, to broad pattern behavior tracking on the web via ad companies, I think most people know their being tracked at various stages for various reasons. However, is it bad that target knows I like to buy grass fed beef? Probably not. It reveals some things about me, but I am far less concerned, as are most I imagine. This same mindset is what fuels people when they don't care what FB/etc is doing. Not that it's right/wrong, but I think people don't care who knows about their lunch or catpics. Thinking that's all that FB could gain out of it. Humans in general are really bad at thinking long term. Nothing bad happens immediately when you sign up to FB, when you post personal information, when they sell your data, etc. For a lot of FB users, it might be 20 years before they regret their actions. That's just a hard feedback cycle for people.
- ccozan 9y ago
  You must probably don't know how powerfull this analytics are. Is it possible to correlate and infer all kind of data, based on other signals, what kind of person are you. For example if you drive a bicycle and eat beef, most likely you have a certain income, have a certain family type ( you use same IP!! ) , which means you might have a certain political view and concerns. And this is where targeted manipulation is active, they can drive you in a certain direction. Psychology at it's best. This is how you win an election.
  - notheguyouthink 9y ago
    Agree completely. Does it say much more than my job though? My car? my public travel patterns? etc. There's a reasonable about of information about me that I expect cameras on every corner to know. Giving my information to FB/etc though? That's another story.
jpz 9y ago
Most people are extremely nontechnical and are inadvertently ignorant rather than naive. People that don’t have jobs working with data, who are not technical or mathematical, aren’t going to know.
- dspillett 9y ago
  Are people not taught about "stranger danger" as kids anymore? Why do they just trust that someone won't abuse the information that they hand over?
mtgx 9y ago
It's both naivety and lack of understanding, which as I've said before is by far the #1 problem with getting people to want more privacy. It's really not that they "don't care" about privacy, even if they themselves think that's what it is. They usually say that because they don't understand the 1,000 horrific ways in which that data about them could be exploited, from personal blackmail situations, to identity fraud, to manipulating elections, to using it against them in court in a possible future conflict with law enforcement, and in many other situations. I've seen people who are typically quite "anti-privacy" because "they want to benefit from Alexa, Google Assistant" and other such gimmicks, and "aren't scared" if Google or Amazon holds their data, because after all it's not the government holding it (ha! good one). But now they've deleted their Facebook accounts, because they're finally beginning to understand the implications of these companies holding all of this data about them and how it could be abused. And it's still early days. It's only going to get worse from here, as we see more such abuses using Facebook, Google, Amazon's data, carriers', and other data hoarders' data.

realusername 9y ago

If people just followed a little bit the news, we had the PRISM scandals going on for years, it's hard to not notice that.

bob_theslob646 9y ago

This is not news. (2010)[http://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-feds-collect-facebook-social-media-data-why-are-you-surprised/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-feds-collect-facebook-socia...] (2010)[https://www.technologyreview.com/s/418971/facebook-personal-data-a-security-risk/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/418971/facebook-personal-...] (2012)[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/facebook-is-using-you.html?mtrref=undefined&gwh=923FEF313682DFFF689EFB75B61C2F81&gwt=pay&assetType=opinion http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/facebook-is...] (2011)[https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/student-campaigns-against-facebook-data-collection-2374072.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...] (2011)[https://techcrunch.com/2011/11/01/researchers-flood-facebook-with-bots-collect-250gb-of-user-data/ https://techcrunch.com/2011/11/01/researchers-flood-facebook...] (2012)[money.cnn.com/2012/03/22/technology/facebook-privacy-changes/index.htm] (2011)[https://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/09/26/facebook-defends-getting-data-from-logged-out-users/ https://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/09/26/facebook-defends-get...] The real discussion to be had is how do you know that the person is actually aware of giving consent, similar to how a recaptcha verifies whether or not you are a human. I see in the future, some sort of test for users, that verifies that they read the terms of service, as a form of consent for the user agreement. Edit: Fixed all urls. All work except, cnn where you have to copy paste.

archon 9y ago
> some sort of test for users, that verifies that they read the terms of service, as a form of consent for the user agreement. This will only happen if terms of service get vastly shorter, or if a law is passed that forces it. I would bet that any such measure would absolutely destroy user signup metrics, which means that not only do companies have no financial incentive to take such measures, but they also have an active financial disincentive to make the "I read the TOS, let me sign up now" process any more complicated than they absolutely must. I'm also pretty sure that the everyday user would be pissed about that additional barrier to entry.
UweSchmidt 9y ago
There can be no consent for the usage of your data, as it is impossible to grasp in what ways the data will be used exactly, what deep learning algorithms will learn from it and what impact it will have on your life and society as a whole.

freyir 9y ago

> and surprising for most users of Facebook Yeah, but let's be honest, they're dumb fu * * s.

kingkongjaffa 9y ago
I mean on average the readership of HN are vastly more likely to be aware and care about their data and identity privacy than the average facebook user. so in this sense you're not wrong.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
loxs 9y ago
Why do we censor words? Aren't we all adults here? Does HN have a policy about this?
- to_bpr 9y ago
  We're adults here but that doesn't mean we should pursue a higher level of discourse. If you want cursing or other low content, there's always Reddit.
  - UncreativeCodar 9y ago
    I know it's originally from a Zuckerburg quote but the point is that if you want to call someone a dumbfuck, call them a dumbfuck. Censoring the latter half doesn't somehow elevate the discourse.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - zingmars 9y ago

psyc 9y ago

Well, I was with you right up until the gratuitous equivalence to Zuckerberg.

IncRnd 9y ago

Yes, this is news. However, it really shouldn't surprise any users of facebook that facebook would find ways to monetize their data, being carelessly abusive in the process.