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Basically they're going nuclear because Iran is. Saudi Arabia burns about $5B of oil in the summer to fuel air conditioners and it would be easy enough to run a

Basically they're going nuclear because Iran is. Saudi Arabia burns about $5B of oil in the summer to fuel air conditioners and it would be easy enough to run a natgas pipeline into the country (most Saudi natgas is used in the petrochemical industry) but Saudi doesn't want to be a fossil fuel importer, too humiliating. None of it makes much sense, to be honest. The entire region is sitting on massive amounts of natgas or solar potential so there is no reason other than prestige or bombs to go nuclear.

newnewpdro 9y ago
Bombs. [1] An acquaintance who works in the oil industry relocated to Saudi Arabia for the express purpose of developing their fracking industry. He said they were burning unrefined crude oil for power generation, and were pivoting to natural gas. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/middleeast/saudi-arabia-iran-nuclear-weapons-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/middleeast/saudi-arabia-iran-...
adrianN 9y ago
They could just build solar to run their aircons. It's a perfect match.
- 3pt14159 9y ago
  Cheaper at scale in the long run too. Short of some unforeseen breakthroughs in non-typical nuclear like thorium.
  - DennisP 9y ago
    It wouldn't be that unforeseen, there are a bunch of companies working on molten salt reactors and there don't appear to be any showstoppers. The main issue is getting regulators to wrap their heads around it, but Terrestrial Energy in Canada got through the first stage of regulatory approval last year [1], and ThorCon appears to be making good progress with Indonesia [2]. Moltex is pursuing licensing in Canada as well [3], and thinks it could have its first reactor online as early as 2026 [4]. Terrapower has been awarded $40M from the DOE for their work on a molten chloride fast reactor [5]. [1] https://www.terrestrialenergy.com/2017/11/terrestrial-energy-imsr-first-commercial-advanced-reactor-assessed-regulator/ https://www.terrestrialenergy.com/2017/11/terrestrial-energy... [2] https://medium.com/@bobsoef/indonesia-is-preparing-to-go-nuclear-e71c22f0b403 https://medium.com/@bobsoef/indonesia-is-preparing-to-go-nuc... [3] http://moltexenergy.com/news/details.aspx?positionId=85 http://moltexenergy.com/news/details.aspx?positionId=85 [4] http://moltexenergy.com/files/cms/7_Moltex_Energy_Press_Release_Deloitte%20(14.07.2017).docx.pdf http://moltexenergy.com/files/cms/7_Moltex_Energy_Press_Rele... [5] http://terrapower.com/technologies/mcfr http://terrapower.com/technologies/mcfr
    - 3pt14159 9y ago
      I'm for guarded optimism here. The reality is that getting regulators to wrap their heads around it is a real cost. The public doesn't trust nuclear and these smaller ones don't produce medical isotopes, so regulators can't even fall back on saying grandma needs it. When the public says "why not solar?" the government should have a good answer. It makes sense in Canada (history of safe nuclear, large population base with knowledge in engineering, etc) but it doesn't make sense in Saudi Arabia short of nuclear arms capability.
      - DennisP 9y ago
        Regulation is a serious barrier in the U.S. but Canada is a lot more rational about new technologies. Simple answer to "why not solar" is that we need power at night, and it's not clear that storage at large scale would be cost-competitive with molten salt reactors. (I think nuclear baseload with solar for extra daytime load makes a lot of sense, though.) I once described molten salt reactors to a very anti-nuclear activist in the Green Party, and he said "hmm...that actually sounds pretty good."
realusername 9y ago
> solar potential If I recall there's too much dust in Saudi Arabia for the solar panels to be any useful (and not enough rain to remove it). Here is some article on the subject: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph240/alshakhs2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph240/alshakhs2/. Nuclear would make more sense there.
- Retric 9y ago
  Dust is a killer for consitrating solar power, but much less so for PV. You can also clean them with minimal water useage. It's just a tradeoff of how much desalination is worth it for efficiency gains.
  - emiliobumachar 9y ago
    Interesting. How about "cleaning" them with salt water? Sure the salt on the panels is not ideal, but it's better than dust.
    - raverbashing 9y ago
      Salt water + electricity = not good Study mentions up to 50% of efficiency decrease after 6mo Seems like the best solution would be mechanical cleaning (either automatic or manual)
      - ams6110 9y ago
        Gaskets + insulators = problem solved.
      - pjc50 9y ago
        The panels are sealed against ingress in any case.
    - ams6110 9y ago
      Some sort of "spray and squeegee" system would likely even remove most of the salt. Windshield wipers for PV panels?

newnewpdro 9y ago

Bombs. [1] An acquaintance who works in the oil industry relocated to Saudi Arabia for the express purpose of developing their fracking industry. He said they were burning unrefined crude oil for power generation, and were pivoting to natural gas. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/middleeast/saudi-arabia-iran-nuclear-weapons-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/15/middleeast/saudi-arabia-iran-...

adrianN 9y ago

They could just build solar to run their aircons. It's a perfect match.

3pt14159 9y ago
Cheaper at scale in the long run too. Short of some unforeseen breakthroughs in non-typical nuclear like thorium.
- DennisP 9y ago
  It wouldn't be that unforeseen, there are a bunch of companies working on molten salt reactors and there don't appear to be any showstoppers. The main issue is getting regulators to wrap their heads around it, but Terrestrial Energy in Canada got through the first stage of regulatory approval last year [1], and ThorCon appears to be making good progress with Indonesia [2]. Moltex is pursuing licensing in Canada as well [3], and thinks it could have its first reactor online as early as 2026 [4]. Terrapower has been awarded $40M from the DOE for their work on a molten chloride fast reactor [5]. [1] https://www.terrestrialenergy.com/2017/11/terrestrial-energy-imsr-first-commercial-advanced-reactor-assessed-regulator/ https://www.terrestrialenergy.com/2017/11/terrestrial-energy... [2] https://medium.com/@bobsoef/indonesia-is-preparing-to-go-nuclear-e71c22f0b403 https://medium.com/@bobsoef/indonesia-is-preparing-to-go-nuc... [3] http://moltexenergy.com/news/details.aspx?positionId=85 http://moltexenergy.com/news/details.aspx?positionId=85 [4] http://moltexenergy.com/files/cms/7_Moltex_Energy_Press_Release_Deloitte%20(14.07.2017).docx.pdf http://moltexenergy.com/files/cms/7_Moltex_Energy_Press_Rele... [5] http://terrapower.com/technologies/mcfr http://terrapower.com/technologies/mcfr
  - 3pt14159 9y ago
    I'm for guarded optimism here. The reality is that getting regulators to wrap their heads around it is a real cost. The public doesn't trust nuclear and these smaller ones don't produce medical isotopes, so regulators can't even fall back on saying grandma needs it. When the public says "why not solar?" the government should have a good answer. It makes sense in Canada (history of safe nuclear, large population base with knowledge in engineering, etc) but it doesn't make sense in Saudi Arabia short of nuclear arms capability.
    - DennisP 9y ago
      Regulation is a serious barrier in the U.S. but Canada is a lot more rational about new technologies. Simple answer to "why not solar" is that we need power at night, and it's not clear that storage at large scale would be cost-competitive with molten salt reactors. (I think nuclear baseload with solar for extra daytime load makes a lot of sense, though.) I once described molten salt reactors to a very anti-nuclear activist in the Green Party, and he said "hmm...that actually sounds pretty good."

realusername 9y ago

> solar potential If I recall there's too much dust in Saudi Arabia for the solar panels to be any useful (and not enough rain to remove it). Here is some article on the subject: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph240/alshakhs2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph240/alshakhs2/. Nuclear would make more sense there.

Retric 9y ago
Dust is a killer for consitrating solar power, but much less so for PV. You can also clean them with minimal water useage. It's just a tradeoff of how much desalination is worth it for efficiency gains.
- emiliobumachar 9y ago
  Interesting. How about "cleaning" them with salt water? Sure the salt on the panels is not ideal, but it's better than dust.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    Salt water + electricity = not good Study mentions up to 50% of efficiency decrease after 6mo Seems like the best solution would be mechanical cleaning (either automatic or manual)
    - ams6110 9y ago
      Gaskets + insulators = problem solved.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      The panels are sealed against ingress in any case.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Some sort of "spray and squeegee" system would likely even remove most of the salt. Windshield wipers for PV panels?