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> According to the Chronicle, the preliminary investigation found the Uber car was driving at 38 mph in a 35 mph zone and did not attempt to brake. Herzberg is

> According to the Chronicle, the preliminary investigation found the Uber car was driving at 38 mph in a 35 mph zone and did not attempt to brake. Herzberg is said to have abruptly walked from a center median into a lane with traffic. The autonomous vehicle was speeding and made no attempt to decelerate given the sudden presence of an obstruction in its path? I would expect some kind of reaction from the car within seconds, or milliseconds.

friedman23 9y ago
3mph above the speed limit
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- benwilber0 9y ago
  That is speeding and also the car was inattentive to potential hazards outside of its vision. Normal human drivers slow down when they see a wild lady on the median looking like she might dart into the road. Normal people slow down when there are kids playing with a ball on the sidewalk. Do these cars do that? Do they even drive the speed limit? edit: Also accidentally killing someone with your car because of minor speeding or inattentiveness usually results in a misdemeanor vehicular manslaughter charge. Who is getting that charge here?
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    If I'm imagining this scenario correctly, I've experienced it tons of times and never seen traffic slow down. It's a road with a median and a person attempting to cross the road has temporarily stopped in the median waiting for a break in traffic so they can cross. Maybe I've just lived in 2 crazy states, or maybe I'm not imagining this scenario correctly, but I can't recall ever having seen traffic slow down for this situation. It's possible to believe that the sensors/AI failed (no braking) while also acknowledging that the vehicle/driver is not at fault for the death. I suspect that may ultimately be the case here.
    - jcranmer 9y ago
      Traffic might not slow down, but I'd definitely keep an eye out for the person in the median.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        True, but you also might not have time to react and hit the brakes if someone darts out in front of you.
      - gugagore 9y ago
        You might also rest your foot on the brake in anticipation. But neither attention nor anticipating controls is a concept that really exists in these autonomous system. They're "always ready". (yeah "attention" can exist in perception neural networks, but I am not sure that has much to do with keeping an eye out for a risky event)
      - smileysteve 9y ago
        Unless you were texting while driving, changing a song, eating, talking with a passenger, or talking on the phone (even handsfree). Or, it was dark, your (night) vision isn't the best - but passes the drivers test, or you were tired.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      Where have you lived? Here in DC you regularly have to slow down because tourists and homeless people will blithely jump into the street. Same thing in Philadelphia or New York.
  - prawn 9y ago
    Sign in the area was actually 45 mph, so the car was 7 mph under the limit, it seems.
    - tzs 9y ago
      Yup. Here's a picture of the sign [1]. I found this based on the photo of the accident location in this article [2]. I went to Tempe, AZ on Google Maps, entered the name of the building in the background of the photo ("First Solar"), and from there it was pretty easy to find the photo location. Then it was just a matter of going backward until the speed limit sign for that road in that direction was found. [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4350531,-111.941492,3a,75y,329.33h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx-K4_17J8MVthFRapvIa2A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4350531,-111.941492,3a,75y,3... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving-uber/self-driving-uber-car-kills-arizona-woman-crossing-street-idUSKBN1GV296 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving-uber/se...
  - paganel 9y ago
    > Normal people slow down when there are kids playing with a ball on the sidewalk. The driving-exam manual I had to read before getting my license was mentioning this exact scenario, i.e. if one sees kids playing on the sidewalk close to the road that the driver should slow down. It was even included among the questions given at the written exam itself. But, then again, the authorities over here in Europe are more attentive when handing out driving licenses to people who are about to handle 2-ton pieces of metal inside populated areas. In this case it seems like the "US driving mentality" (only the driver counts, damn be the pedestrians) has also affected the actual engineers who have programmed these "AI" cars.
- tathougies 9y ago
  But you see, this is a computerized car. Whereas for a human, there is gauge observation error, there’s really no excuse for a machine, especially a machine who has our lives in its hands
  - GhostVII 9y ago
    But, in the US at least, the speed of traffic will be much faster than the speed limit, so driving the limit is unsafe.
    - mbreese 9y ago
      Driving 38 vs 35 is hardly an unsafe difference... These are machines. They should obey the speed limit. For people learning to drive -- the first step is learning how to obey the rules. The second step is learning which rules can be bent. Let's focus on step one at the moment.
      - GhostVII 9y ago
        Where I'm from, at least, for people learning to drive the first thing you learn is that, if you go the speed limit, you are going too slow and will irritate everyone around you.
    - benwilber0 9y ago
      Driving the speed limit is never unsafe. And especially not in a residential area 35 MPH zone.
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        Driving the speed limit is frequently unsafe, e.g. in adverse weather conditions or unusual street conditions (like when passing an adjacent block party with lots of adults and children milling about. The speed limit is the maximum speed limit in ideal conditions.
      - GhostVII 9y ago
- disconnected 9y ago
  That is immaterial. The promise of autonomous cars is that they will be better drivers than human drivers. That autonomous car, by going 3mph above the speed limit, already failed at the most fundamental level: following the rules. And it was not even an obscure or ambiguous rule at that, as I assume that there are signs prominently displaying the legal speed limit. But even if there aren't, the rule book covers those situations in an unambiguous way (or at least it does in my country). Accidents are excusable. Shit happens. But deliberately failing to follow the rules? That cannot be tolerated.
- prawn 9y ago
  Someone else has noted that the sign in the area indicates 45 mph, so it might've been a typo in the article.
CydeWeys 9y ago
For some reason I'm not at all surprised to learn that Uber programmed their vehicles to speed. Of course they did. This is literally "move fast and break things" at work.
- abadaba 9y ago
  Studies have shown that the rate of driving accidents is minimized when a vehicle travels at the same speed as other vehicles on the road. This means that in many cases, “speeding” with the flow of traffic provides the safest outcome. Although in the case of this accident, it appears that there was no surrounding traffic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve
zepn 9y ago
> given the sudden presence of an obstruction in its path It doesn't even need to have been in its path; it should have detected a pedestrian near the edge of the road, concluded that they might step into the road (it's a possibility), and decelerated. Before she even stepped into the road, the Uber was at fault.
- 1812Overture 9y ago
  The cars would creep along at 5mph every time there's a pedestrian on the sidewalk then, obstructing traffic and causing accidents.

friedman23 9y ago

3mph above the speed limit

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
benwilber0 9y ago
That is speeding and also the car was inattentive to potential hazards outside of its vision. Normal human drivers slow down when they see a wild lady on the median looking like she might dart into the road. Normal people slow down when there are kids playing with a ball on the sidewalk. Do these cars do that? Do they even drive the speed limit? edit: Also accidentally killing someone with your car because of minor speeding or inattentiveness usually results in a misdemeanor vehicular manslaughter charge. Who is getting that charge here?
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  If I'm imagining this scenario correctly, I've experienced it tons of times and never seen traffic slow down. It's a road with a median and a person attempting to cross the road has temporarily stopped in the median waiting for a break in traffic so they can cross. Maybe I've just lived in 2 crazy states, or maybe I'm not imagining this scenario correctly, but I can't recall ever having seen traffic slow down for this situation. It's possible to believe that the sensors/AI failed (no braking) while also acknowledging that the vehicle/driver is not at fault for the death. I suspect that may ultimately be the case here.
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    Traffic might not slow down, but I'd definitely keep an eye out for the person in the median.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      True, but you also might not have time to react and hit the brakes if someone darts out in front of you.
    - gugagore 9y ago
      You might also rest your foot on the brake in anticipation. But neither attention nor anticipating controls is a concept that really exists in these autonomous system. They're "always ready". (yeah "attention" can exist in perception neural networks, but I am not sure that has much to do with keeping an eye out for a risky event)
    - smileysteve 9y ago
      Unless you were texting while driving, changing a song, eating, talking with a passenger, or talking on the phone (even handsfree). Or, it was dark, your (night) vision isn't the best - but passes the drivers test, or you were tired.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    Where have you lived? Here in DC you regularly have to slow down because tourists and homeless people will blithely jump into the street. Same thing in Philadelphia or New York.
- prawn 9y ago
  Sign in the area was actually 45 mph, so the car was 7 mph under the limit, it seems.
  - tzs 9y ago
    Yup. Here's a picture of the sign [1]. I found this based on the photo of the accident location in this article [2]. I went to Tempe, AZ on Google Maps, entered the name of the building in the background of the photo ("First Solar"), and from there it was pretty easy to find the photo location. Then it was just a matter of going backward until the speed limit sign for that road in that direction was found. [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4350531,-111.941492,3a,75y,329.33h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx-K4_17J8MVthFRapvIa2A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4350531,-111.941492,3a,75y,3... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving-uber/self-driving-uber-car-kills-arizona-woman-crossing-street-idUSKBN1GV296 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving-uber/se...
- paganel 9y ago
  > Normal people slow down when there are kids playing with a ball on the sidewalk. The driving-exam manual I had to read before getting my license was mentioning this exact scenario, i.e. if one sees kids playing on the sidewalk close to the road that the driver should slow down. It was even included among the questions given at the written exam itself. But, then again, the authorities over here in Europe are more attentive when handing out driving licenses to people who are about to handle 2-ton pieces of metal inside populated areas. In this case it seems like the "US driving mentality" (only the driver counts, damn be the pedestrians) has also affected the actual engineers who have programmed these "AI" cars.
tathougies 9y ago
But you see, this is a computerized car. Whereas for a human, there is gauge observation error, there’s really no excuse for a machine, especially a machine who has our lives in its hands
- GhostVII 9y ago
  But, in the US at least, the speed of traffic will be much faster than the speed limit, so driving the limit is unsafe.
  - mbreese 9y ago
    Driving 38 vs 35 is hardly an unsafe difference... These are machines. They should obey the speed limit. For people learning to drive -- the first step is learning how to obey the rules. The second step is learning which rules can be bent. Let's focus on step one at the moment.
    - GhostVII 9y ago
      Where I'm from, at least, for people learning to drive the first thing you learn is that, if you go the speed limit, you are going too slow and will irritate everyone around you.
  - benwilber0 9y ago
    Driving the speed limit is never unsafe. And especially not in a residential area 35 MPH zone.
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      Driving the speed limit is frequently unsafe, e.g. in adverse weather conditions or unusual street conditions (like when passing an adjacent block party with lots of adults and children milling about. The speed limit is the maximum speed limit in ideal conditions.
    - GhostVII 9y ago
disconnected 9y ago
That is immaterial. The promise of autonomous cars is that they will be better drivers than human drivers. That autonomous car, by going 3mph above the speed limit, already failed at the most fundamental level: following the rules. And it was not even an obscure or ambiguous rule at that, as I assume that there are signs prominently displaying the legal speed limit. But even if there aren't, the rule book covers those situations in an unambiguous way (or at least it does in my country). Accidents are excusable. Shit happens. But deliberately failing to follow the rules? That cannot be tolerated.
prawn 9y ago
Someone else has noted that the sign in the area indicates 45 mph, so it might've been a typo in the article.

CydeWeys 9y ago

For some reason I'm not at all surprised to learn that Uber programmed their vehicles to speed. Of course they did. This is literally "move fast and break things" at work.

abadaba 9y ago
Studies have shown that the rate of driving accidents is minimized when a vehicle travels at the same speed as other vehicles on the road. This means that in many cases, “speeding” with the flow of traffic provides the safest outcome. Although in the case of this accident, it appears that there was no surrounding traffic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve

zepn 9y ago

> given the sudden presence of an obstruction in its path It doesn't even need to have been in its path; it should have detected a pedestrian near the edge of the road, concluded that they might step into the road (it's a possibility), and decelerated. Before she even stepped into the road, the Uber was at fault.

1812Overture 9y ago
The cars would creep along at 5mph every time there's a pedestrian on the sidewalk then, obstructing traffic and causing accidents.