6 ms·

Isn't the point of smart vehicles that they have superhuman reaction speed?

by ionforce 9y ago

lokopodium 9y ago
It is, actuators still have their lag, probably not much different from foot-pedal combo.
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fastball 9y ago
There are many instances in Asia of people committing suicide by car (jumping in front of a car with no chance for the driver to stop). Not saying this is the case here, but it could be. As others have said, we need to wait until we know more before jumping to conclusions.
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bmelton 9y ago
e=mv2, whether or not the driver is a superhuman robot or a human. This means that there's a fixed distance from which the optimal driver can stop a car doing xmph. Yes, an autonomous vehicle has a faster reaction time* to begin the stop, but no matter the reaction time, a stop cannot be instantaneous from any substantial amount of speed. If it takes 20 feet to stop a car doing 20MPH, it will take 80 feet to stop a car doing 40mph. If there's a human between the initial brake point and 80 feet from it, that human will be hit, no matter who or what the driver is.
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- Buldak 9y ago
  Tempe police have said that the car didn't brake ("significantly") prior to the collision[1]. So it does not seem that the car reacted optimally but simply had too much speed to halt in time. [1]http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/cops-uber-self-driving-car-didnt-brake-much-in-arizona-pedestrian-death-10247629 http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/cops-uber-self-driving-c...
  - bmelton 9y ago
    I haven't any insight to whether or not the car did or didn't attempt to brake, but it's necessary to respond to the "superhuman reaction speed" remark as, even if the reaction speed is superhuman, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's enough. Accidents can still occur even if the car is perfect.
- akira2501 9y ago
  > to begin the stop It, or the driver, could do more than just stop though. You can change directions, even at 38mph. Then we have to get into other questions, would I as a driver willingly sideswipe a car next to me to avoid hitting a pedestrian? Is it reasonable to expect an AI to make the same value decision?
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  - mirimir 9y ago
    It's not unknown for people to crash and burn to avoid hitting squirrels. And with modern airbag systems, it's arguably safer for all concerned for cars to risk hitting poles, and even trees. But on the other hand, once leaving the roadway there's the risk of hitting other pedestrians.
    - kamaal 9y ago
      This is a major ethical decision to make. What if the airbags don't open up. What if there are other unseen things to crashing one's car to save somebody else's life. I honestly believe given a split second reaction time, any decision made by a human should be considered right. An algorithm however is a different deal, what should happen is already decided in an algorithm, so in some way its already settled who gets killed.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        When driving on surface streets, I do my best to track what's happening wherever in front, not just on the roadway. Given all the sensors on a self-driving car, why can't it detect all moving objects, including those off the roadway, but approaching?
        kamaal 9y ago
        Its all about what things are hiding behind the opacity. Blind spots are one thing, but if you jump right in front of a car out of nowhere from a place totally invisible to a sensor, its a totally different case. You can't avoid what is hiding.
- bambax 9y ago
  The promise of self-driving cars is (was) that they’re much better than humans at predicting he behavior of other moving entities. A pedestrian doesn’t suddenly materialize on the road in front of the car. It comes from somewhere and the radar could have detected it (even « in the shadows »), and slowed down in anticipation of an uncertainty. Or maybe it couldn’t, but then the whole « narrative « of the experiment is in serious jeopardy.
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  - eh78ssxv2f 9y ago
    > whole « narrative « of the experiment is in serious jeopardy. Not really. Self driving cars are supposed to be better than average human driver. That does not imply that they NEVER make mistakes. I do not know specifics of this case, but a general comment: If somebody is hiding behind a bush, and (deliberately or by mistake) run in front of the car, there is no way the car can anticipate that. There is no way to avoid accidents in 100% of the cases.
    - Moru 9y ago
      We have some corners where old houses are even intruding a bit on the road. When passing these corners you will have to slow down so you can stop in case a child runs out behind the corner. You can't just blame the victim if you are in control of your own speed. I can think of many situations where I have avoided hitting pedestrians because of my avareness of the situation. Eg: Pedestrian with earphones looking at phone crossing against red light just because the left-turning wehicle in the left lane stopped for a red arrow while I had green going straight. Pedestrian mostly behind the car, just seen thru the window of the car. Pedestrian behind high snow-walls going towards normal pedestrian crossing, no lights. Almost completely covered by the high snow-walls and a buss parked at a buss station 50 m away from the crossing. 50 km/h road. Since I had seen the pedestrian far away already I knew someone would show up there at the time I arrived there. On the other hand I would never pass a buss like that in high speed, pedestrians like to just run across in front of the buss. And high snow-walls next to a crossing is a big red flag too. I live in Sweden though, where pedestrians are supposed to be first class citizens that has no armor.
ekianjo 9y ago
superhUman reaction speed does not mean that the laws of physics stop applying. A vehicule at 40mph will still take the same distance to stop.
kamaal 9y ago
Actually you can't go from 40 miles/ph to 0 miles/ph in an instant. At least not with a passenger car. The reaction time is typically a few seconds. If one throws themselves in front of a car, the car would need a few seconds to react. Based on the speed, distance and other parameters, I don't think any car would be able to stop in an instant. Thinking about it seriously, it may be shouldn't. Also these things could lead to a crash pile up with other vehicles coming in from behind.

Isn't the point of smart vehicles that they have superhuman reaction speed?

lokopodium 9y ago

It is, actuators still have their lag, probably not much different from foot-pedal combo.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

fastball 9y ago

There are many instances in Asia of people committing suicide by car (jumping in front of a car with no chance for the driver to stop). Not saying this is the case here, but it could be. As others have said, we need to wait until we know more before jumping to conclusions.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

bmelton 9y ago

e=mv2, whether or not the driver is a superhuman robot or a human. This means that there's a fixed distance from which the optimal driver can stop a car doing xmph. Yes, an autonomous vehicle has a faster reaction time* to begin the stop, but no matter the reaction time, a stop cannot be instantaneous from any substantial amount of speed. If it takes 20 feet to stop a car doing 20MPH, it will take 80 feet to stop a car doing 40mph. If there's a human between the initial brake point and 80 feet from it, that human will be hit, no matter who or what the driver is.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Buldak 9y ago
Tempe police have said that the car didn't brake ("significantly") prior to the collision[1]. So it does not seem that the car reacted optimally but simply had too much speed to halt in time. [1]http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/cops-uber-self-driving-car-didnt-brake-much-in-arizona-pedestrian-death-10247629 http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/cops-uber-self-driving-c...
- bmelton 9y ago
  I haven't any insight to whether or not the car did or didn't attempt to brake, but it's necessary to respond to the "superhuman reaction speed" remark as, even if the reaction speed is superhuman, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's enough. Accidents can still occur even if the car is perfect.
akira2501 9y ago
> to begin the stop It, or the driver, could do more than just stop though. You can change directions, even at 38mph. Then we have to get into other questions, would I as a driver willingly sideswipe a car next to me to avoid hitting a pedestrian? Is it reasonable to expect an AI to make the same value decision?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mirimir 9y ago
  It's not unknown for people to crash and burn to avoid hitting squirrels. And with modern airbag systems, it's arguably safer for all concerned for cars to risk hitting poles, and even trees. But on the other hand, once leaving the roadway there's the risk of hitting other pedestrians.
  - kamaal 9y ago
    This is a major ethical decision to make. What if the airbags don't open up. What if there are other unseen things to crashing one's car to save somebody else's life. I honestly believe given a split second reaction time, any decision made by a human should be considered right. An algorithm however is a different deal, what should happen is already decided in an algorithm, so in some way its already settled who gets killed.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      When driving on surface streets, I do my best to track what's happening wherever in front, not just on the roadway. Given all the sensors on a self-driving car, why can't it detect all moving objects, including those off the roadway, but approaching?
      - kamaal 9y ago
        Its all about what things are hiding behind the opacity. Blind spots are one thing, but if you jump right in front of a car out of nowhere from a place totally invisible to a sensor, its a totally different case. You can't avoid what is hiding.
bambax 9y ago
The promise of self-driving cars is (was) that they’re much better than humans at predicting he behavior of other moving entities. A pedestrian doesn’t suddenly materialize on the road in front of the car. It comes from somewhere and the radar could have detected it (even « in the shadows »), and slowed down in anticipation of an uncertainty. Or maybe it couldn’t, but then the whole « narrative « of the experiment is in serious jeopardy.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- eh78ssxv2f 9y ago
  > whole « narrative « of the experiment is in serious jeopardy. Not really. Self driving cars are supposed to be better than average human driver. That does not imply that they NEVER make mistakes. I do not know specifics of this case, but a general comment: If somebody is hiding behind a bush, and (deliberately or by mistake) run in front of the car, there is no way the car can anticipate that. There is no way to avoid accidents in 100% of the cases.
  - Moru 9y ago
    We have some corners where old houses are even intruding a bit on the road. When passing these corners you will have to slow down so you can stop in case a child runs out behind the corner. You can't just blame the victim if you are in control of your own speed. I can think of many situations where I have avoided hitting pedestrians because of my avareness of the situation. Eg: Pedestrian with earphones looking at phone crossing against red light just because the left-turning wehicle in the left lane stopped for a red arrow while I had green going straight. Pedestrian mostly behind the car, just seen thru the window of the car. Pedestrian behind high snow-walls going towards normal pedestrian crossing, no lights. Almost completely covered by the high snow-walls and a buss parked at a buss station 50 m away from the crossing. 50 km/h road. Since I had seen the pedestrian far away already I knew someone would show up there at the time I arrived there. On the other hand I would never pass a buss like that in high speed, pedestrians like to just run across in front of the buss. And high snow-walls next to a crossing is a big red flag too. I live in Sweden though, where pedestrians are supposed to be first class citizens that has no armor.

ekianjo 9y ago

superhUman reaction speed does not mean that the laws of physics stop applying. A vehicule at 40mph will still take the same distance to stop.

kamaal 9y ago

Actually you can't go from 40 miles/ph to 0 miles/ph in an instant. At least not with a passenger car. The reaction time is typically a few seconds. If one throws themselves in front of a car, the car would need a few seconds to react. Based on the speed, distance and other parameters, I don't think any car would be able to stop in an instant. Thinking about it seriously, it may be shouldn't. Also these things could lead to a crash pile up with other vehicles coming in from behind.