6 ms·

Anglo-saxon is, too: "beowulf" literally means "bee-hunter". This ties into some cultic bear-worship tropes, too, which i believe also still persist, having to

Anglo-saxon is, too: "beowulf" literally means "bee-hunter". This ties into some cultic bear-worship tropes, too, which i believe also still persist, having to do with the fact that bears, like humans, have true names, and it is Not Wise/Not Possible to speak them -- thus the allusiory naming conventions.

drb91 9y ago
Correct. “Bear” actually derives from the word for “brown” (aka “the brown one”) rather that the PIE <asterisk>rkto- — think “ursus”. In facr, all germanic words derived from <asterisk>rkto- appear to be loan words from romance language (eg arctic). Seems like the slavic version is roughly equivalent to “honey eater”. Personally I’ve always thought this is because bears can both stand on two legs and roughly share a diet with humans. :)
- lokopodium 9y ago
  Funnily, Old Slavic for bear is бер, cognate to bear. However, this word became taboo too.
  - hprotagonist 9y ago
    better be extra-super careful! :)
  - pandaman 9y ago
    Is it? I thought it is not known. Some people believe it's "behr" because of "behrlohga" - "bear den" but there is more plausible etymology for that being derived from actual Old Slavic "trash"/"dirt" than "behr + lohg".
    - thriftwy 9y ago
      But then it is derived from "brown" (dirt, garbage) in the same way as in English.
      - pandaman 9y ago
        I doubt it has a close connection to "brown". "Behr-" in Slavic languages, when stands for any color at all, is, usually, for "white".
- pimlottc 9y ago
  Atlas Obscura just had a nice article on this. "Wolf" is another example. https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-does-dagnabbit-mean https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-does-dagnabbit-me... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C4%BA%CC%A5k%CA%B7os https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...
- benbreen 9y ago
  I've been making my way through David Anthony's The Horse, the Wheel and Language (really well-written book if anyone is interested, btw) and the thing about Proto-Indo-Europeans having some kind of religious taboo against naming bears is one of my favorite theories in it. I've been trying to learn Farsi and have some Latin, and it has been a lot of fun finding the points of origin in the really ancient words (Farsi word for bear is khers, which I assume is etymologically linked to ursus.) I just dug into the topic a bit more and came across the theory that King Arthur's name means "bear king" - fun correlate with the "Bee Warrior" mentioned above :) From Wikipedia: "Another possibility is that it is derived from a Brittonic patronym Arto-rīg-ios (the root of which, arto-rīg- 'bear-king' is to be found in the Old Irish personal name Art-ri)."
- aquadrop 9y ago
  I think slavic version is "the one who knows where the honey is" or "the one who controls the honey"
  - mormegil 9y ago
    Nope, that is a folk etymology, see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/medv%C4%9Bd%D1%8C https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic...
    - aquadrop 9y ago
      Hm, interesting, always thought it was from parts 'med' and 'ved'. Though Ukrainian's 'vedmed' kinda contradicts suggestion that first part it 'medv'. Maybe it started some long time ago with 'honey eater' and then transitioned...
scientician 9y ago
True names can be dangerous things, impossible to unspeak.
- twic 9y ago
  In the computers, i suppose an object's memory address is its true name, which is why we go to such great lengths to conceal it, with opaque handles, ASLR, etc.
jjtheblunt 9y ago
Citation for the claim that "beowulf" is "bee-hunter" ? I'd learned from a graduate school course in germanic linguistics it was likely bear-wolf...but i'm curious where you got your claim.
- stochastic_monk 9y ago
  According to Wikipedia [0], Bee-Hunter is one of several competing etymologies, additionally including Bee-Wolf, Bear-Hunter, Thor-wolf, Beow-wolf, and Woodpecker. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_(hero) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_(hero)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
henrikschroder 9y ago
Noa-names are fascinating, the flipside to true names being taboo, because they would summon the thing. Indo-european had a word for bear, but it's completely eradicated in germanic languages, and replaced with the noa-name: Bear. The brown one. The original rtko/arktos/ursus never made it. Wolf works the same way in Swedish, the common word is "varg", which is a noa-name meaning cattle-killer. Ulv, derived from ulfr/wulf/vlk exists and means the same thing, but it's archaic.
- portofcall 9y ago
  I’ve never heard of a noa-name, and my attempts to Google frustratingly return only meanings of the name Noa. Do you have any good starting points for me to learn about this? It’s so very up my alley, and I’d love to learn more.
  - scrumper 9y ago
    'Noa' is a Polynesian term apparently; basically it's the opposite of 'taboo' (also Polynesian.) It's not on the face of it a very confidence-inspiring source, but r/askhistorians is as good as Reddit gets, and the poster here wrote an actual book on the subject. Give it a read: https://thingsonreddit.com/things/13812/comments/ https://thingsonreddit.com/things/13812/comments/
    - portofcall 9y ago
      I love /r/askhistorians, they have fantastic contributions and moderation. Thanks very much for this.
  - henrikschroder 9y ago
    Yeah, I tried a quick googling for it as well, and got buried in resources about the name Noah instead. I thought it would be more wide-spread, but there's wikipedia pages for it in Swedish, Norwegian and Iceland at least: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noaord https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noaord

drb91 9y ago

Correct. “Bear” actually derives from the word for “brown” (aka “the brown one”) rather that the PIE <asterisk>rkto- — think “ursus”. In facr, all germanic words derived from <asterisk>rkto- appear to be loan words from romance language (eg arctic). Seems like the slavic version is roughly equivalent to “honey eater”. Personally I’ve always thought this is because bears can both stand on two legs and roughly share a diet with humans. :)

lokopodium 9y ago
Funnily, Old Slavic for bear is бер, cognate to bear. However, this word became taboo too.
- hprotagonist 9y ago
  better be extra-super careful! :)
- pandaman 9y ago
  Is it? I thought it is not known. Some people believe it's "behr" because of "behrlohga" - "bear den" but there is more plausible etymology for that being derived from actual Old Slavic "trash"/"dirt" than "behr + lohg".
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    But then it is derived from "brown" (dirt, garbage) in the same way as in English.
    - pandaman 9y ago
      I doubt it has a close connection to "brown". "Behr-" in Slavic languages, when stands for any color at all, is, usually, for "white".
pimlottc 9y ago
Atlas Obscura just had a nice article on this. "Wolf" is another example. https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-does-dagnabbit-mean https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-does-dagnabbit-me... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C4%BA%CC%A5k%CA%B7os https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...
benbreen 9y ago
I've been making my way through David Anthony's The Horse, the Wheel and Language (really well-written book if anyone is interested, btw) and the thing about Proto-Indo-Europeans having some kind of religious taboo against naming bears is one of my favorite theories in it. I've been trying to learn Farsi and have some Latin, and it has been a lot of fun finding the points of origin in the really ancient words (Farsi word for bear is khers, which I assume is etymologically linked to ursus.) I just dug into the topic a bit more and came across the theory that King Arthur's name means "bear king" - fun correlate with the "Bee Warrior" mentioned above :) From Wikipedia: "Another possibility is that it is derived from a Brittonic patronym Arto-rīg-ios (the root of which, arto-rīg- 'bear-king' is to be found in the Old Irish personal name Art-ri)."
aquadrop 9y ago
I think slavic version is "the one who knows where the honey is" or "the one who controls the honey"
- mormegil 9y ago
  Nope, that is a folk etymology, see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/medv%C4%9Bd%D1%8C https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic...
  - aquadrop 9y ago
    Hm, interesting, always thought it was from parts 'med' and 'ved'. Though Ukrainian's 'vedmed' kinda contradicts suggestion that first part it 'medv'. Maybe it started some long time ago with 'honey eater' and then transitioned...

scientician 9y ago

True names can be dangerous things, impossible to unspeak.

twic 9y ago
In the computers, i suppose an object's memory address is its true name, which is why we go to such great lengths to conceal it, with opaque handles, ASLR, etc.

jjtheblunt 9y ago

Citation for the claim that "beowulf" is "bee-hunter" ? I'd learned from a graduate school course in germanic linguistics it was likely bear-wolf...but i'm curious where you got your claim.

stochastic_monk 9y ago
According to Wikipedia [0], Bee-Hunter is one of several competing etymologies, additionally including Bee-Wolf, Bear-Hunter, Thor-wolf, Beow-wolf, and Woodpecker. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_(hero) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf_(hero)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

henrikschroder 9y ago

Noa-names are fascinating, the flipside to true names being taboo, because they would summon the thing. Indo-european had a word for bear, but it's completely eradicated in germanic languages, and replaced with the noa-name: Bear. The brown one. The original rtko/arktos/ursus never made it. Wolf works the same way in Swedish, the common word is "varg", which is a noa-name meaning cattle-killer. Ulv, derived from ulfr/wulf/vlk exists and means the same thing, but it's archaic.

portofcall 9y ago
I’ve never heard of a noa-name, and my attempts to Google frustratingly return only meanings of the name Noa. Do you have any good starting points for me to learn about this? It’s so very up my alley, and I’d love to learn more.
- scrumper 9y ago
  'Noa' is a Polynesian term apparently; basically it's the opposite of 'taboo' (also Polynesian.) It's not on the face of it a very confidence-inspiring source, but r/askhistorians is as good as Reddit gets, and the poster here wrote an actual book on the subject. Give it a read: https://thingsonreddit.com/things/13812/comments/ https://thingsonreddit.com/things/13812/comments/
  - portofcall 9y ago
    I love /r/askhistorians, they have fantastic contributions and moderation. Thanks very much for this.
- henrikschroder 9y ago
  Yeah, I tried a quick googling for it as well, and got buried in resources about the name Noah instead. I thought it would be more wide-spread, but there's wikipedia pages for it in Swedish, Norwegian and Iceland at least: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noaord https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noaord