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Yeah how many of those billions are part of that economy that is actually causing the harm (wars, famine, poverty, etc) that they are then proud to “fight”? c’m

Yeah how many of those billions are part of that economy that is actually causing the harm (wars, famine, poverty, etc) that they are then proud to “fight”? c’mon how can people believe in such narrative? like the new one with Elon Musk... it is impossible even to try criticize them. Their hypocrisy is too smart and too well organized to be fought.

hutzlibu 9y ago
"Their hypocrisy is too smart and too well organized to be fought." Especially when we all are also part of the economy and therefore by your logic also responsible for every war and famime etc. So it is our hypocrisy as well. But related: you know, that there have been wars and famine and poverty since the beginning of humanity(and before) ?
- sametmax 9y ago
  Well, I don't pretend to be an angel, but I haven't corrupted officials (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/microsoft-whistleblower-allegations-highlight-global-corruption-risks/#4d3f117c2599 https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/micro...), bribed (http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1-45570.html http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1-...), or aided dictators (https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia). But I guess it's ok, if you fight Malaria.
  - hutzlibu 9y ago
    Hm, I guess it is hard to do much in a state where bribery is the norm, without doing it by yourself. And aiding a dictator sounds bad, but when "aiding" simply means doing business with him, then you can blame allmost the whole world. As we all are buying things that were at least partly made in dictatorships. And what is the alternative? Not doing business with states who have not our perfectly nice democratic governments? And don't get me wrong, I don't like Microsoft for making exclusive deals with any governments to strenghten their monopoly, but "evil" is something different. Like what I came across yesterday again, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre and the fact, that there was a public outrage in the US, for convincting one of the murderers. And not so much about the massacre or the cover up itself. And that this does not seem to have changed fundamentaly regarding the ongoing drone war, imprisoning innocent people for years in Guantanamo, torturing, massacring etc. etc. So blaming only the rich seems hypocrite to me, when the very normal base of the people don't think or act that nice by themself. As far as I know over 70% consider Snowden to be a traitor ... so what can you expect?
csallen 9y ago
Comments like these are ineffective because you aren't providing any evidence or arguments to justify your beliefs. You're just asserting that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Why should anyone believe you?
- sametmax 9y ago
  We have 20 years of reporting about the mischief of Microsoft. What more do you need ? Why do we even have to, yet again, bring the burden of the proof to fight a PR orchestrated with millions of dollar ? It's an impossible to win fight to tell the sky is blue to people if the minute they don't look at it anymore, they doubt it and ask for proof.
  - csallen 9y ago
    Microsoft's anti-competitive business practices caused wars, famine, and poverty in Africa? That's news to me. So yeah, you do have the burden of proof if you're going to defend statements to that effect. Also, it's not safe to assume that everyone has read the same things you've read, and knows the same things you do. You have to be prepared to present your evidence during every conversation. Those are table stakes.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      I copy paste the same links, over, and over. There's always more like you. As I said, I can't win against this PR. It's sad.
      - dsacco 9y ago
        > I copy paste the same links, over, and over. There's always more like you. That’s both dismissive and intellectually insulting. Please tell me how this is “PR” and not honest altruism: 1. The Gates Foundation’s philanthropy is partly responsible for a 25% reduction in malaria diagnoses from 2005 onwards: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Health/Malaria https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Health/Mal... 2. Their efforts have dramatically reduced polio, nearly to the point of eradicating it entirely: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Development/Polio https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Developmen... Let’s start with those two. I gave you links directly from the foundation’s website. Please, by all means, enlighten us.
dsacco 9y ago
> Yeah how many of those billions are part of that economy that is actually causing the harm (wars, famine, poverty, etc) that they are then proud to “fight”? Yeah, no. I want to hear from you how, specifically, Microsoft’s high valuation (and thereby most of Gates’ wealth) is a product of war, famine, and poverty. I want concrete evidence, not handwaving, and not global capitalist conspiracies. If you can’t provide that, your claims are intellectually dishonest and you’re spreading a narrative.

hutzlibu 9y ago

"Their hypocrisy is too smart and too well organized to be fought." Especially when we all are also part of the economy and therefore by your logic also responsible for every war and famime etc. So it is our hypocrisy as well. But related: you know, that there have been wars and famine and poverty since the beginning of humanity(and before) ?

sametmax 9y ago
Well, I don't pretend to be an angel, but I haven't corrupted officials (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/microsoft-whistleblower-allegations-highlight-global-corruption-risks/#4d3f117c2599 https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/micro...), bribed (http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1-45570.html http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1-...), or aided dictators (https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia). But I guess it's ok, if you fight Malaria.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  Hm, I guess it is hard to do much in a state where bribery is the norm, without doing it by yourself. And aiding a dictator sounds bad, but when "aiding" simply means doing business with him, then you can blame allmost the whole world. As we all are buying things that were at least partly made in dictatorships. And what is the alternative? Not doing business with states who have not our perfectly nice democratic governments? And don't get me wrong, I don't like Microsoft for making exclusive deals with any governments to strenghten their monopoly, but "evil" is something different. Like what I came across yesterday again, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre and the fact, that there was a public outrage in the US, for convincting one of the murderers. And not so much about the massacre or the cover up itself. And that this does not seem to have changed fundamentaly regarding the ongoing drone war, imprisoning innocent people for years in Guantanamo, torturing, massacring etc. etc. So blaming only the rich seems hypocrite to me, when the very normal base of the people don't think or act that nice by themself. As far as I know over 70% consider Snowden to be a traitor ... so what can you expect?

csallen 9y ago

Comments like these are ineffective because you aren't providing any evidence or arguments to justify your beliefs. You're just asserting that you're right and everyone else is wrong. Why should anyone believe you?

sametmax 9y ago
We have 20 years of reporting about the mischief of Microsoft. What more do you need ? Why do we even have to, yet again, bring the burden of the proof to fight a PR orchestrated with millions of dollar ? It's an impossible to win fight to tell the sky is blue to people if the minute they don't look at it anymore, they doubt it and ask for proof.
- csallen 9y ago
  Microsoft's anti-competitive business practices caused wars, famine, and poverty in Africa? That's news to me. So yeah, you do have the burden of proof if you're going to defend statements to that effect. Also, it's not safe to assume that everyone has read the same things you've read, and knows the same things you do. You have to be prepared to present your evidence during every conversation. Those are table stakes.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    I copy paste the same links, over, and over. There's always more like you. As I said, I can't win against this PR. It's sad.
    - dsacco 9y ago
      > I copy paste the same links, over, and over. There's always more like you. That’s both dismissive and intellectually insulting. Please tell me how this is “PR” and not honest altruism: 1. The Gates Foundation’s philanthropy is partly responsible for a 25% reduction in malaria diagnoses from 2005 onwards: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Health/Malaria https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Health/Mal... 2. Their efforts have dramatically reduced polio, nearly to the point of eradicating it entirely: https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Development/Polio https://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Developmen... Let’s start with those two. I gave you links directly from the foundation’s website. Please, by all means, enlighten us.

dsacco 9y ago

> Yeah how many of those billions are part of that economy that is actually causing the harm (wars, famine, poverty, etc) that they are then proud to “fight”? Yeah, no. I want to hear from you how, specifically, Microsoft’s high valuation (and thereby most of Gates’ wealth) is a product of war, famine, and poverty. I want concrete evidence, not handwaving, and not global capitalist conspiracies. If you can’t provide that, your claims are intellectually dishonest and you’re spreading a narrative.