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I think it would be positive. We will sprawl so much that we end up repopulating much of the area what we left previously. Suburbua (or sleeper districts) arou

I think it would be positive. We will sprawl so much that we end up repopulating much of the area what we left previously. Suburbua (or sleeper districts) around city core is sprawl. Semi-rural settlements all over the map is not sprawl. It is normawl. Add more telecommuting and basic income, and we're all set.

bobthepanda 9y ago
Suburbs were also originally supposed to be pastoral garden cities. Usually the ideal of planners and technologists falls prey to the reality of mass-market commoditization.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  Aren't them? I guess you was never exposed much to other ways of mass urbanization. Like this: http://www.vsedomarossii.ru/photos/area_77/city_2894/street_10767/122712_1.jpg http://www.vsedomarossii.ru/photos/area_77/city_2894/street_... Or this: https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/v1492112219/articles/2016/06/26/the-lost-chinese-city-police-feared-to-enter/160625-_O-Connor-Kowloon-City-embed_yvvhte https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/v1492112219/artic... You will have to admit that suburbs are pretty pastoral.
  - paganel 9y ago
    I lived in an apartment building just like the first one in your photo until not that long ago (I now also live in a 8-storey apartment building, but it's a little smaller compared to the first one) and I'd take living in such a building over living in a suburbia-like hell every day of the year (this happens in an big East-European city). Living in that type of building meant that the tram-station was literally 50 meters outside of my building and a metro station a mere 5-minute walk away, there was a school just bellow my apartment's window (I could here the children playing in the school's yard in the morning) and a kindergarten 100 meters from my building's entrance and the same tram would take me to a Walmart-like store 3 stations away pretty easily (yeah, you don't need a car to do shopping). And on top of that, having a city that is comprised of mostly tall apartment buildings means that nature is a very short drive away (either with one's car or with public transport), but nowadays, as the suburbia phenomenon has also invaded the city of which I'm talking about, it means that in order to "reach" nature one has to drive further and further away.
    - aquadrop 9y ago
      You describe advantages of transportation and location around the building, not advantages of the building itself. Because crammed building like this usually also means smaller living space, problem with sound from/to neighbors and the street, if you live on a high floor - you need to go up and down (and hope that there's no problem with elevator). You say that nature is too far, but if you have nice garden you can have nature one step away (also, there should be more parks, regardless of if it's suburbia or a city, but it's cheaper to have a park in suburbia). I think best solution is combination of individual homes and apartment buildings (just not giant ones), so we could increase population density and there could be some shops and cafes in walk/bike ride distance. You don't need to always go to walmart to get a load of bread, for that you can occasionally ride there. And self driving cars will only help here.
      - paganel 9y ago
        > you need to go up and down (and hope that there's no problem with elevator). For the last 7 years I've been only living on the 7th and 8th floor, I think only twice I had problems with the elevator. > also means smaller living space I'm very fine with that, I don't need huge spaces to live all of by myself (or with my wife + kids). As a matter of fact I have several coffee shops on a 10-minute walk radius, there's where I also spend most of my free time. > You say that nature is too far, but if you have nice garden you can have nature one step away (also, there should be more parks, regardless of if it's suburbia or a city, but it's cheaper to have a park in suburbia). I don't have that much spare time, and as such I don't have time for gardening (plus, I don't like it). On top of that, "raw" nature beats "gardened" nature by several orders of magnitude. I want my kids to be able to wander by themselves in wild-ish forests just outside the city (as I used to do as a kid, while I was living in an communist apartment building), I don't want them to enjoy the sort of "manicured" nature that the suburbia promotes.
        aquadrop 9y ago
        > For the last 7 years I've been only living on the 7th and 8th floor, I think only twice I had problems with the elevator. Still it's a bother, especially if you're a senior citizen. Also you still spend much time just waiting for an elevator and riding it, > I'm very fine with that, I don't need huge spaces to live all of by myself (or with my wife + kids). As a matter of fact I have several coffee shops on a 10-minute walk radius, there's where I also spend most of my free time. That's ok, but many people would like something more than a 50 m^2 flat and don't spend most of free time in coffee shops. > I don't have that much spare time, and as such I don't have time for gardening (plus, I don't like it). On top of that, "raw" nature beats "gardened" nature by several orders of magnitude I don't mean some fancy garden, just grass and maybe some trees/bushes. And I don't agree that raw nature beats it by several orders of magnitude, of course someone likes it better, and it's no mountains, but it's still real trees, real flower and real grass. > I want my kids to be able to wander by themselves in wild-ish forests just outside the city (as I used to do as a kid, while I was living in an communist apartment building), I don't want them to enjoy the sort of "manicured" nature that the suburbia promotes. If you want that than living in a large city is really not an answer. Your kids only can do that if you live on the very edge of the city. And suburbia has more places like that because it has more edges (there's many detached patched of sprawl). Or you can live in a very small city.
  - lorenzhs 9y ago
    Why are you comparing to a derelict housing block in Russia and cramped living in Kowloon? There is plenty of high-density housing in western cities as well, and it looks nothing like the pictures. How's this, for example: https://www.google.de/maps/@48.1220008,11.5526623,358a,35y,4.31h,46.76t/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.de/maps/@48.1220008,11.5526623,358a,35y,4... It has: - much higher density than any suburb - a subway stop and multiple bus stops - a bunch of restaurants and bars - a supermarket and another one just on the other side of the train tracks - multiple childcares - schools in close vicinity And it's accessible to pedestrians and cyclists.
  - bobthepanda 9y ago
    Suburbs are pastoral in the same way that a Domino's is reflective of a Neapolitan pizza. They certainly have somewhat artificial greenery. But very few suburbs are actually pastoral. It's interesting to note that Hong Kong, while very urban, is also 40% park. https://www.hongkongfp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/1067615.jpg https://www.hongkongfp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/106761... IMO it's a lot better to have a small amount of highly developed area and lots of pristine, verdant land rather than some cookie-cutter landscaping into the horizon.

bobthepanda 9y ago

Suburbs were also originally supposed to be pastoral garden cities. Usually the ideal of planners and technologists falls prey to the reality of mass-market commoditization.

thriftwy 9y ago
Aren't them? I guess you was never exposed much to other ways of mass urbanization. Like this: http://www.vsedomarossii.ru/photos/area_77/city_2894/street_10767/122712_1.jpg http://www.vsedomarossii.ru/photos/area_77/city_2894/street_... Or this: https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/v1492112219/articles/2016/06/26/the-lost-chinese-city-police-feared-to-enter/160625-_O-Connor-Kowloon-City-embed_yvvhte https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/v1492112219/artic... You will have to admit that suburbs are pretty pastoral.
- paganel 9y ago
  I lived in an apartment building just like the first one in your photo until not that long ago (I now also live in a 8-storey apartment building, but it's a little smaller compared to the first one) and I'd take living in such a building over living in a suburbia-like hell every day of the year (this happens in an big East-European city). Living in that type of building meant that the tram-station was literally 50 meters outside of my building and a metro station a mere 5-minute walk away, there was a school just bellow my apartment's window (I could here the children playing in the school's yard in the morning) and a kindergarten 100 meters from my building's entrance and the same tram would take me to a Walmart-like store 3 stations away pretty easily (yeah, you don't need a car to do shopping). And on top of that, having a city that is comprised of mostly tall apartment buildings means that nature is a very short drive away (either with one's car or with public transport), but nowadays, as the suburbia phenomenon has also invaded the city of which I'm talking about, it means that in order to "reach" nature one has to drive further and further away.
  - aquadrop 9y ago
    You describe advantages of transportation and location around the building, not advantages of the building itself. Because crammed building like this usually also means smaller living space, problem with sound from/to neighbors and the street, if you live on a high floor - you need to go up and down (and hope that there's no problem with elevator). You say that nature is too far, but if you have nice garden you can have nature one step away (also, there should be more parks, regardless of if it's suburbia or a city, but it's cheaper to have a park in suburbia). I think best solution is combination of individual homes and apartment buildings (just not giant ones), so we could increase population density and there could be some shops and cafes in walk/bike ride distance. You don't need to always go to walmart to get a load of bread, for that you can occasionally ride there. And self driving cars will only help here.
    - paganel 9y ago
      > you need to go up and down (and hope that there's no problem with elevator). For the last 7 years I've been only living on the 7th and 8th floor, I think only twice I had problems with the elevator. > also means smaller living space I'm very fine with that, I don't need huge spaces to live all of by myself (or with my wife + kids). As a matter of fact I have several coffee shops on a 10-minute walk radius, there's where I also spend most of my free time. > You say that nature is too far, but if you have nice garden you can have nature one step away (also, there should be more parks, regardless of if it's suburbia or a city, but it's cheaper to have a park in suburbia). I don't have that much spare time, and as such I don't have time for gardening (plus, I don't like it). On top of that, "raw" nature beats "gardened" nature by several orders of magnitude. I want my kids to be able to wander by themselves in wild-ish forests just outside the city (as I used to do as a kid, while I was living in an communist apartment building), I don't want them to enjoy the sort of "manicured" nature that the suburbia promotes.
      - aquadrop 9y ago
        > For the last 7 years I've been only living on the 7th and 8th floor, I think only twice I had problems with the elevator. Still it's a bother, especially if you're a senior citizen. Also you still spend much time just waiting for an elevator and riding it, > I'm very fine with that, I don't need huge spaces to live all of by myself (or with my wife + kids). As a matter of fact I have several coffee shops on a 10-minute walk radius, there's where I also spend most of my free time. That's ok, but many people would like something more than a 50 m^2 flat and don't spend most of free time in coffee shops. > I don't have that much spare time, and as such I don't have time for gardening (plus, I don't like it). On top of that, "raw" nature beats "gardened" nature by several orders of magnitude I don't mean some fancy garden, just grass and maybe some trees/bushes. And I don't agree that raw nature beats it by several orders of magnitude, of course someone likes it better, and it's no mountains, but it's still real trees, real flower and real grass. > I want my kids to be able to wander by themselves in wild-ish forests just outside the city (as I used to do as a kid, while I was living in an communist apartment building), I don't want them to enjoy the sort of "manicured" nature that the suburbia promotes. If you want that than living in a large city is really not an answer. Your kids only can do that if you live on the very edge of the city. And suburbia has more places like that because it has more edges (there's many detached patched of sprawl). Or you can live in a very small city.
- lorenzhs 9y ago
  Why are you comparing to a derelict housing block in Russia and cramped living in Kowloon? There is plenty of high-density housing in western cities as well, and it looks nothing like the pictures. How's this, for example: https://www.google.de/maps/@48.1220008,11.5526623,358a,35y,4.31h,46.76t/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.de/maps/@48.1220008,11.5526623,358a,35y,4... It has: - much higher density than any suburb - a subway stop and multiple bus stops - a bunch of restaurants and bars - a supermarket and another one just on the other side of the train tracks - multiple childcares - schools in close vicinity And it's accessible to pedestrians and cyclists.
- bobthepanda 9y ago
  Suburbs are pastoral in the same way that a Domino's is reflective of a Neapolitan pizza. They certainly have somewhat artificial greenery. But very few suburbs are actually pastoral. It's interesting to note that Hong Kong, while very urban, is also 40% park. https://www.hongkongfp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/1067615.jpg https://www.hongkongfp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/106761... IMO it's a lot better to have a small amount of highly developed area and lots of pristine, verdant land rather than some cookie-cutter landscaping into the horizon.