4 ms·

I can show you a brick. Can you show me a mind?

by manjushri 9y ago

johnchristopher 9y ago
Will you be showing a compressed piece of clay and straws or some kind of rectangular piece of concrete ?
- manjushri 9y ago
  Could you point to the difference?
  - hatchback176 9y ago
    Why is the 'or' exclusive?
tebugst 9y ago
This is irrelevant. You don't have to show brick every time. We say sugar is sweet. No body experience how sweet is defined by other. Still we all believe it is sweet.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- edanm 9y ago
  That's a bit different. The definition of sweet is basically defined as "the experience you get when eating sugar". It doesn't matter for this purpose if that experience is completely different for you - all that matters is that we both know that "sweet" is basically a synonym for "your experience of sugar". Note that this definition allows you to predict a lot of things: 1. You can predict that you'll have the same experience when eating other things which are not sugar, but which you know cause the same experience in you. 2. You can predict, at least in broad outlines, whether people will find this experience pleasurable or not (again, on average, broad outline, but still better than chance). 3. You can predict that someone without a sense of taste won't experience anything when eating sugar. That's why this definition is meaningful. Of course I can play word games all day about "can you show me 'sweet'???". But those are word games that are trying to hide the idea of what a definition is and what we use it for.
adrianN 9y ago
Can you show me a cat gif?
jamesrcole 9y ago
That's like asking, can you show me an immaterial soul? Yes, there are arguments to be made in favour of the existence of such things, but given all we've learnt about things like biology, computation and the brain, we can hardly just assume that such things literally exist, and there's many reasons to think they don't.
- manjushri 9y ago
  >That's like asking, can you show me an immaterial soul? Precisely my point. Saying "the mind is material" is like saying "the soul is ether"
homonculus1 9y ago
Can you show me a computer program?
- manjushri 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program
AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y ago
You show me a collection of matter and energy, it is no more separate from the world around it than the salt is separate from the ocean. It takes a mind to make it a brick.
edanm 9y ago
Well that depends. What do you mean when you say a mind? Explain to me what exactly it means to show you a mind, and I'll tell you whether I can show you one. If you can't explain what you mean by "show you a mind", then I'm not sure how this question is different than "can you show me a gefadfij" - questions are only meaningful if we agree on what we're talking about. Note: by default to your question of "can you show me a mind", I plan to show you a brain, plus lots of reasons to think this constitutes a mind (e.g., changing something in the brain changes how someone behaves, touching parts of the brain with electricity can reliably cause sensations to people, etc).
- manjushri 9y ago
  Excellent question. >If you can't explain what you mean by "show you a mind", then I'm not sure how this question is different than "can you show me a gefadfij" This is basically my point, the mind is an undefinable concept. Many people arbitrarily assume the mind is constrained to the brain, which is provably false. For example, gut bacteria have a powerful influence on the mind. Do you think it would be possible to completely separate the brain from the rest of the body and it's environment and still keep the persons conscious mind "alive" and in the same state?
thathappened 9y ago
Your mind wouldn't ask a brick to show it a mind would it? It identifies something similar and depending how important it serves it's purpose it'll keep evaulating how much can be learned by this. Keep in mind we're only letting "intelligent" people contribute to this conversation and that in itself is biased. Why aren't we trying to identify why schizophrenic or people with split personalities chime in on why they perceive things differently and manage to survive. We say they're unsuccessful in life but by our standards and that's not much different than a servant of a faith, no? That's all your minds looking for. Things that change with a pattern it can differentiate. Bricks don't change unless something you understand changes it. Like inertas definition or Murphy's law, an obersavation of change from a perspective.
mr_toad 9y ago
Can you show me a Higgs Boson?
UncleMeat 9y ago
Can you show me the inside of a brick?

I can show you a brick. Can you show me a mind?

johnchristopher 9y ago

Will you be showing a compressed piece of clay and straws or some kind of rectangular piece of concrete ?

manjushri 9y ago
Could you point to the difference?
- hatchback176 9y ago
  Why is the 'or' exclusive?

tebugst 9y ago

This is irrelevant. You don't have to show brick every time. We say sugar is sweet. No body experience how sweet is defined by other. Still we all believe it is sweet.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
edanm 9y ago
That's a bit different. The definition of sweet is basically defined as "the experience you get when eating sugar". It doesn't matter for this purpose if that experience is completely different for you - all that matters is that we both know that "sweet" is basically a synonym for "your experience of sugar". Note that this definition allows you to predict a lot of things: 1. You can predict that you'll have the same experience when eating other things which are not sugar, but which you know cause the same experience in you. 2. You can predict, at least in broad outlines, whether people will find this experience pleasurable or not (again, on average, broad outline, but still better than chance). 3. You can predict that someone without a sense of taste won't experience anything when eating sugar. That's why this definition is meaningful. Of course I can play word games all day about "can you show me 'sweet'???". But those are word games that are trying to hide the idea of what a definition is and what we use it for.

adrianN 9y ago

Can you show me a cat gif?

jamesrcole 9y ago

That's like asking, can you show me an immaterial soul? Yes, there are arguments to be made in favour of the existence of such things, but given all we've learnt about things like biology, computation and the brain, we can hardly just assume that such things literally exist, and there's many reasons to think they don't.

manjushri 9y ago
>That's like asking, can you show me an immaterial soul? Precisely my point. Saying "the mind is material" is like saying "the soul is ether"

homonculus1 9y ago

Can you show me a computer program?

manjushri 9y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_program

AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y ago

You show me a collection of matter and energy, it is no more separate from the world around it than the salt is separate from the ocean. It takes a mind to make it a brick.

edanm 9y ago

Well that depends. What do you mean when you say a mind? Explain to me what exactly it means to show you a mind, and I'll tell you whether I can show you one. If you can't explain what you mean by "show you a mind", then I'm not sure how this question is different than "can you show me a gefadfij" - questions are only meaningful if we agree on what we're talking about. Note: by default to your question of "can you show me a mind", I plan to show you a brain, plus lots of reasons to think this constitutes a mind (e.g., changing something in the brain changes how someone behaves, touching parts of the brain with electricity can reliably cause sensations to people, etc).

manjushri 9y ago
Excellent question. >If you can't explain what you mean by "show you a mind", then I'm not sure how this question is different than "can you show me a gefadfij" This is basically my point, the mind is an undefinable concept. Many people arbitrarily assume the mind is constrained to the brain, which is provably false. For example, gut bacteria have a powerful influence on the mind. Do you think it would be possible to completely separate the brain from the rest of the body and it's environment and still keep the persons conscious mind "alive" and in the same state?

thathappened 9y ago

Your mind wouldn't ask a brick to show it a mind would it? It identifies something similar and depending how important it serves it's purpose it'll keep evaulating how much can be learned by this. Keep in mind we're only letting "intelligent" people contribute to this conversation and that in itself is biased. Why aren't we trying to identify why schizophrenic or people with split personalities chime in on why they perceive things differently and manage to survive. We say they're unsuccessful in life but by our standards and that's not much different than a servant of a faith, no? That's all your minds looking for. Things that change with a pattern it can differentiate. Bricks don't change unless something you understand changes it. Like inertas definition or Murphy's law, an obersavation of change from a perspective.

mr_toad 9y ago

Can you show me a Higgs Boson?

UncleMeat 9y ago

Can you show me the inside of a brick?