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How - the special counsel Mueller has subpoena authority. First link from indictments in list form. The one I saw on TV was that guy with Hillary in a cage in

How - the special counsel Mueller has subpoena authority. First link from indictments in list form. The one I saw on TV was that guy with Hillary in a cage in parades - he was paid by Russians to make it. I also remember reading about the pro and anti gun rallies at that Texas state park - the Russians made the Facebook page for both sides in that little incident. https://mashable.com/2018/02/16/indictment-russian-trolls-interference-election/#SD5UuJloE5ql https://mashable.com/2018/02/16/indictment-russian-trolls-in... Presumably Mueller used that subpoena on Facebook and internet providers and the Russians didn't try to hide very hard and used mostly Russian ip addresses. There's also the fact Facebook admitted it sold ads and post promotion to Russian agencies and told Congress the reach of those ads and posts. Recently Facebook revealed to all users in North America whether or not they had interacted with those ads/posts. Several news organizations have independently found the data from other sources including actual interviews with the people working in Russia. One technique the Russians used was to impersonate Americans of some extreme view to stow discord and inflame the other side of some debate. https://www.thedailybeast.com/exclusive-russians-impersonated-real-american-muslims-to-stir-chaos-on-facebook-and-instagram https://www.thedailybeast.com/exclusive-russians-impersonate... There was also several different Facebook campaigns where they got Africans with pidgin English to pretend to be Americans and try to inflame white nationalists and latent racists fears.

mistermann 9y ago
I've heard all sorts of the juicy details, it makes a great story there's no doubt. What I'm looking for is some substantial, verifiable evidence to overcome my suspicions at how perfect of a story it is, as well as some of the inconsistencies. For example: > Presumably Mueller used that subpoena on Facebook and internet providers and the Russians didn't try to hide very hard and used mostly Russian ip addresses. So on one hand, article after article tells us how sophisticated these hackers are, yet these very same hackers didn't hide their ip addresses, and also openly posted links on twitter that were supportive of Russia. Doesn't something about that seem a little off to you? If it does, you'll be the first person I've encountered who think it does, everyone else is completely confident that this is an open and shut case. Yet, none of these same people can point to any specific evidence that could convince me. Sure, everyone has some articles full of juicy stories, usually containing confident statements from high ranking government officials assuring us crimes have been committed and they have proof, but I've never been able to find a person who could point me directly to any proof. 1/3 of the way through https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download, rather than having my mind changed, my skepticism is stronger than before. This feels a bit like some things we've experienced in the past, where the "facts" about an enemy, that we're are assured are 100% completely true and verified, trust us turn out to not be true several years down the road. But by then, we've already spent trillions of dollars and waged a war killing thousands of innocent people. I'd rather not go down that path again, so I'm sorry if I can't join in the party vilifying the evil Russians, because based on the information I have so far, it seems like classic misdirection with the primary beneficiary once again being military budgets, and everyone is just a bit too enthusiastic to believe anything they're told. EDIT: There is no shortage of internet downvotes for people like me who aren't willing to go along with this story, but there is a severe shortage of people who will put me in my place with actual content. You can probably imagine the effect this might have on the certainty I feel in the correctness of my stance. Unlike others, I'm open to having my mind change, but for some reason no one can muster any effort beyond a condescending and intellectually lazy "let me google that for you".
- willstrafach 9y ago
  > Russians didn't try to hide very hard and used mostly Russian ip addresses. This is incorrect. The indictment explains it. They routed their connections through US-based VPNs to appear as if they were American users.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    As they should, but I read another Authoritative Proof that many people assured me I should take Very Seriously that used the posting of pro-Russian propaganda as the proof that Twitter bots that interfered with the election were Russian. I don't doubt at all that there is a government sponsored organization in Russia that promotes Russian interests via cyber operations, as I'm sure there is in the United States. I'm looking for proof that: a) this isn't a 3rd party posing as Russians b) The harm or danger of this meddling is proportional to the airtime and Very Serious Tones of Voice we've been subjected to 24x7 for the last year. Do you know of any compelling (and verifiable by a civilian) evidence that could help me with that?
    - willstrafach 9y ago
      a) Feel free to read the indictment, some detail there. I assume there will be far more at a later point. b) I have no idea what effect it had. I personally am not sure it did have any effect that made a difference. Coverage is still warranted because attacks from foreign nations are newsworthy regardless of success.
    - anonINFP 9y ago
      How much reading are you willing to make time for? I've collected a very large number of links to source, research, & analysis material on Russia's ongoing active measures campaign over the last 14 months (though ironically, I still haven't gotten around to reading the recent indictment). This is a complex issue, and my perception is that a full proof of all the claims alleged about Russia's operation will require much more detail and logical inferences than most people who keep harping about "where's the proof? where's the smoking gun?" really expect. But if you want to keep the scope limited to just your a) and b), then I can probably dig up some compelling and hopefully verifiable public evidence in support of them (at least in support of your point a - for b, the only people who have metrics & data on how effective and impactful this operation has been on our country are probably the IRA, Russian intelligence services, and Cambridge Analytica. So point b is tougher for me, but I could at least point you to proof of the dark seriousness of their intent and goals). It might still be a lot of material to go over, though. Fair warning.

mistermann 9y ago

I've heard all sorts of the juicy details, it makes a great story there's no doubt. What I'm looking for is some substantial, verifiable evidence to overcome my suspicions at how perfect of a story it is, as well as some of the inconsistencies. For example: > Presumably Mueller used that subpoena on Facebook and internet providers and the Russians didn't try to hide very hard and used mostly Russian ip addresses. So on one hand, article after article tells us how sophisticated these hackers are, yet these very same hackers didn't hide their ip addresses, and also openly posted links on twitter that were supportive of Russia. Doesn't something about that seem a little off to you? If it does, you'll be the first person I've encountered who think it does, everyone else is completely confident that this is an open and shut case. Yet, none of these same people can point to any specific evidence that could convince me. Sure, everyone has some articles full of juicy stories, usually containing confident statements from high ranking government officials assuring us crimes have been committed and they have proof, but I've never been able to find a person who could point me directly to any proof. 1/3 of the way through https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download, rather than having my mind changed, my skepticism is stronger than before. This feels a bit like some things we've experienced in the past, where the "facts" about an enemy, that we're are assured are 100% completely true and verified, trust us turn out to not be true several years down the road. But by then, we've already spent trillions of dollars and waged a war killing thousands of innocent people. I'd rather not go down that path again, so I'm sorry if I can't join in the party vilifying the evil Russians, because based on the information I have so far, it seems like classic misdirection with the primary beneficiary once again being military budgets, and everyone is just a bit too enthusiastic to believe anything they're told. EDIT: There is no shortage of internet downvotes for people like me who aren't willing to go along with this story, but there is a severe shortage of people who will put me in my place with actual content. You can probably imagine the effect this might have on the certainty I feel in the correctness of my stance. Unlike others, I'm open to having my mind change, but for some reason no one can muster any effort beyond a condescending and intellectually lazy "let me google that for you".

willstrafach 9y ago
> Russians didn't try to hide very hard and used mostly Russian ip addresses. This is incorrect. The indictment explains it. They routed their connections through US-based VPNs to appear as if they were American users.
- mistermann 9y ago
  As they should, but I read another Authoritative Proof that many people assured me I should take Very Seriously that used the posting of pro-Russian propaganda as the proof that Twitter bots that interfered with the election were Russian. I don't doubt at all that there is a government sponsored organization in Russia that promotes Russian interests via cyber operations, as I'm sure there is in the United States. I'm looking for proof that: a) this isn't a 3rd party posing as Russians b) The harm or danger of this meddling is proportional to the airtime and Very Serious Tones of Voice we've been subjected to 24x7 for the last year. Do you know of any compelling (and verifiable by a civilian) evidence that could help me with that?
  - willstrafach 9y ago
    a) Feel free to read the indictment, some detail there. I assume there will be far more at a later point. b) I have no idea what effect it had. I personally am not sure it did have any effect that made a difference. Coverage is still warranted because attacks from foreign nations are newsworthy regardless of success.
  - anonINFP 9y ago
    How much reading are you willing to make time for? I've collected a very large number of links to source, research, & analysis material on Russia's ongoing active measures campaign over the last 14 months (though ironically, I still haven't gotten around to reading the recent indictment). This is a complex issue, and my perception is that a full proof of all the claims alleged about Russia's operation will require much more detail and logical inferences than most people who keep harping about "where's the proof? where's the smoking gun?" really expect. But if you want to keep the scope limited to just your a) and b), then I can probably dig up some compelling and hopefully verifiable public evidence in support of them (at least in support of your point a - for b, the only people who have metrics & data on how effective and impactful this operation has been on our country are probably the IRA, Russian intelligence services, and Cambridge Analytica. So point b is tougher for me, but I could at least point you to proof of the dark seriousness of their intent and goals). It might still be a lot of material to go over, though. Fair warning.