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You're setting up a straw man to an argument I never made. All I'm telling you is how my dad, his brothers, and the vast majority of his first generation Vietna

You're setting up a straw man to an argument I never made. All I'm telling you is how my dad, his brothers, and the vast majority of his first generation Vietnamese friends (who arrived as refugees) feel about America and the Vietnam War. Despite what you may think, they wholeheartedly support America. If you don't believe me, you should try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country and ask them what they think of the USA. Look at the flags they use (South Vietnam and the USA). If you want to get assaulted (I highly don't recommend this), try bringing Vietnam's current flag and parade it around. EDIT: to andrepd: Again, you keep setting up straw man arguments. It's very easy to attack someone if you misrepresent their views. I never said anything about excusing massacres.

andrepd 9y ago
Well thank you for that comprehensive study. I guess we shouldn't worry about the massacre anymore -.-
sho 9y ago
> try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country > If you want to get assaulted [..] try bringing Vietnam's current flag and parade it around What a bizarre argument. Of course you're going to find pro-USA sentiment in the very people who decided to move to the USA. I hope you realise that the opinions of a few immigrants in the states are going to be pretty unrepresentative of those who actually live in, you know, Vietnam. Speak to actual vietnamese people from actual vietnam and I don't think you'll find they are overwhelmingly pro-USA, nor at all interested in the flag of south vietnam. I'm no expert, but my experience is that they're mildly positive in attitude, mostly due to pop culture. The war was a long time ago and most people are just getting on with their lives. Many immigrant communities foster a kind of "nostalgic nationalism" as a coping strategy when adapting to a profoundly different environment. It dates pretty rapidly. I very much doubt many of the 90+ million people in Vietnam even know of "Little Saigon", nor care overmuch about the opinions of a bunch of old-timers sitting in a mall in California.
- refurb 9y ago
  Actually, Vietnam is one of the most pro-American countries in the world. There was a survey a while and over 90% view the US favorably. You can find it with a google search.
  - rangibaby 9y ago
    That is more to do with China than America though
    - refurb 9y ago
      Some of it is, but some of it is that many VIetnamese went to the US after the at and so their family is there and they can see firsthand the benefits of living in the US. Also Vietnamese are fiercely capitalistic. I've never seen a more go-getter attitude in any other country. That also colors their perception of the US.
      - sho 9y ago
        > many Vietnamese went to the US [..] they can see firsthand the benefits of living in the US This applies to many countries. Why does it specifically influence Vietnamese perceptions more? > Vietnamese are fiercely capitalistic This is true, but again, they're hardly alone. Chinese are fiercely capitalistic as well - and in the same context as the Vietnamese, within the framework of a nominally communist society. Why doesn't your theory apply there, too? I think the situation is much more nuanced than these too-obvious theories, or that can be surfaced in superficial "attitude" surveys. As mentioned in other comments, Vietnamese are deeply (and IMO rightfully) suspicious of China, despite the state's theoretical status as an ally. The USA, despite its history of botched and ham-handed interventions, is ultimately seen as a friend. There's a love/hate aspect to that attitude too, similar to Filipino attitudes to some extent. The absence of military bases in-country helps by keeping the notion theoretical, rather than the often-negative daily experience of having foreign soldiers around a la Korea and Japan. Anyway, without getting too much into the weeds of theorising and speculation, my point was that it's complex - more complex than the OP suggested. Nostalgia for the South Vietnamese flag is a niche sentiment at best, and attitudes to the USA are a complicated product of history and pragmatism. "90% positive" does not capture the nuance, in my opinion. It's probably too late but it would have been good to hear from some non-emigrant Vietnamese.
NotSammyHagar 9y ago
I think you didn't mean it, from your later comments, but you came across as saying we shouldn't only talk about My Lai because the other side did bad things too. Yes, they did bad things, but it doesn't excuse us. We claim we are better. Just like in the Iraq War 2 and our prisons where we treated people horribly, it doesn't excuse it just because someone else also did bad things. I think that's a core principal. It doesn't lessen the horror of atrocities if the other side did it.
- candiodari 9y ago
  > We claim we are better. That's exactly the point made. The US IS better. Better than the Nazis, better than North Vietnam/Vietnam, better than China (and frankly better than all European states during and immediately after WWI/II at least). Better than North Korea. Better than South Africa. With better I mean "how people are treated", in the human rights, in general, and only as part of government policy. And yes, I agree. The US has it's downsides. The US has made mistakes. The difference between a mistake and a government policy is the number of times and the scale at which it happens, and the intent. The US has made mistakes, some of which lead to the death of hundreds, even thousands of people. Some of those mistakes involved the military. It was NOT the intent of any significant fraction of the US to make these events happen. China, Vietnam, and Germany had a widely supported-by-the-people government policy of massacre. Every organisation in those countries is focused and involved in oppressing and massacring people for some reason. Vietnam's CURRENT government made children watch their own parents getting raped, slowly, and killed, then used them as insane soldier-killers sending them into defenseless villages where they brutally murdered everyone they could. This is NOT a one-off. They did this to children for decades. The difference is indescribable and it is absurd to even compare the two. They are not on the same moral level, they just aren't. We are better than that, it's just that simple. That's objectively so, and for some reason a lot of people feel the need to destroy historical views like this. It may not lessen atrocities on the other side, but we should acknowledge the difference between mistakes and popular government-supported genocide. Equating them does nothing, other than provide cover for these massacres. Hell, the amount of people talking up Chinese policy seems to be mounting every day. And, of course, the situation of people in China gets worse everytime some high up in the Chinese government thinks censorship is good enough that they can get away with something more. It pains me to point out the obvious: "anti-racism" has become the leading excuse for racism, inequality and state-based massacres.

andrepd 9y ago

Well thank you for that comprehensive study. I guess we shouldn't worry about the massacre anymore -.-

sho 9y ago

> try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country > If you want to get assaulted [..] try bringing Vietnam's current flag and parade it around What a bizarre argument. Of course you're going to find pro-USA sentiment in the very people who decided to move to the USA. I hope you realise that the opinions of a few immigrants in the states are going to be pretty unrepresentative of those who actually live in, you know, Vietnam. Speak to actual vietnamese people from actual vietnam and I don't think you'll find they are overwhelmingly pro-USA, nor at all interested in the flag of south vietnam. I'm no expert, but my experience is that they're mildly positive in attitude, mostly due to pop culture. The war was a long time ago and most people are just getting on with their lives. Many immigrant communities foster a kind of "nostalgic nationalism" as a coping strategy when adapting to a profoundly different environment. It dates pretty rapidly. I very much doubt many of the 90+ million people in Vietnam even know of "Little Saigon", nor care overmuch about the opinions of a bunch of old-timers sitting in a mall in California.

refurb 9y ago
Actually, Vietnam is one of the most pro-American countries in the world. There was a survey a while and over 90% view the US favorably. You can find it with a google search.
- rangibaby 9y ago
  That is more to do with China than America though
  - refurb 9y ago
    Some of it is, but some of it is that many VIetnamese went to the US after the at and so their family is there and they can see firsthand the benefits of living in the US. Also Vietnamese are fiercely capitalistic. I've never seen a more go-getter attitude in any other country. That also colors their perception of the US.
    - sho 9y ago
      > many Vietnamese went to the US [..] they can see firsthand the benefits of living in the US This applies to many countries. Why does it specifically influence Vietnamese perceptions more? > Vietnamese are fiercely capitalistic This is true, but again, they're hardly alone. Chinese are fiercely capitalistic as well - and in the same context as the Vietnamese, within the framework of a nominally communist society. Why doesn't your theory apply there, too? I think the situation is much more nuanced than these too-obvious theories, or that can be surfaced in superficial "attitude" surveys. As mentioned in other comments, Vietnamese are deeply (and IMO rightfully) suspicious of China, despite the state's theoretical status as an ally. The USA, despite its history of botched and ham-handed interventions, is ultimately seen as a friend. There's a love/hate aspect to that attitude too, similar to Filipino attitudes to some extent. The absence of military bases in-country helps by keeping the notion theoretical, rather than the often-negative daily experience of having foreign soldiers around a la Korea and Japan. Anyway, without getting too much into the weeds of theorising and speculation, my point was that it's complex - more complex than the OP suggested. Nostalgia for the South Vietnamese flag is a niche sentiment at best, and attitudes to the USA are a complicated product of history and pragmatism. "90% positive" does not capture the nuance, in my opinion. It's probably too late but it would have been good to hear from some non-emigrant Vietnamese.

NotSammyHagar 9y ago

I think you didn't mean it, from your later comments, but you came across as saying we shouldn't only talk about My Lai because the other side did bad things too. Yes, they did bad things, but it doesn't excuse us. We claim we are better. Just like in the Iraq War 2 and our prisons where we treated people horribly, it doesn't excuse it just because someone else also did bad things. I think that's a core principal. It doesn't lessen the horror of atrocities if the other side did it.

candiodari 9y ago
> We claim we are better. That's exactly the point made. The US IS better. Better than the Nazis, better than North Vietnam/Vietnam, better than China (and frankly better than all European states during and immediately after WWI/II at least). Better than North Korea. Better than South Africa. With better I mean "how people are treated", in the human rights, in general, and only as part of government policy. And yes, I agree. The US has it's downsides. The US has made mistakes. The difference between a mistake and a government policy is the number of times and the scale at which it happens, and the intent. The US has made mistakes, some of which lead to the death of hundreds, even thousands of people. Some of those mistakes involved the military. It was NOT the intent of any significant fraction of the US to make these events happen. China, Vietnam, and Germany had a widely supported-by-the-people government policy of massacre. Every organisation in those countries is focused and involved in oppressing and massacring people for some reason. Vietnam's CURRENT government made children watch their own parents getting raped, slowly, and killed, then used them as insane soldier-killers sending them into defenseless villages where they brutally murdered everyone they could. This is NOT a one-off. They did this to children for decades. The difference is indescribable and it is absurd to even compare the two. They are not on the same moral level, they just aren't. We are better than that, it's just that simple. That's objectively so, and for some reason a lot of people feel the need to destroy historical views like this. It may not lessen atrocities on the other side, but we should acknowledge the difference between mistakes and popular government-supported genocide. Equating them does nothing, other than provide cover for these massacres. Hell, the amount of people talking up Chinese policy seems to be mounting every day. And, of course, the situation of people in China gets worse everytime some high up in the Chinese government thinks censorship is good enough that they can get away with something more. It pains me to point out the obvious: "anti-racism" has become the leading excuse for racism, inequality and state-based massacres.