8 ms·

The chief culprit was permitting tens of thousands of barbarians to enter the empire. They never integrated or left. Within a hundred years, the western part

by mci 9y ago

The chief culprit was permitting tens of thousands of barbarians to enter the empire. They never integrated or left. Within a hundred years, the western part of the empire collapsed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376–382) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_(376–382)

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
Rome didn't allow them to integrate.
- Amezarak 9y ago
  In fact, one of the Roman demands permitting their emigration was that they surrender the children of the wealthy and powerful to be raised as Romans; this hostage-taking as typical of the times and an effective means of assimilation and integration, as the children generally returned home with Roman ideas in their head. The immediate cause of the first Gothic revolt was that the Romans simply could not logistically supply the massive number of Goths, the Goths bribed their way out of surrendering their arms as they were required to do, and when the (hungry) Goths encountered a town market they were not allowed to go to (so as to not drive up food prices for local citizens to exorbitant prices), they decided to take what they wanted by force, killing anyone in the way. Then when the Romans attempted to punish them, they decided all agreements were off.
boomboomsubban 9y ago
They had let tens of thousands of outsiders in before without issue. The difference here was the Goths beat the Romans on the field, forcing Rome to accept a bad deal. This was a result of a long period of famine and pestilence creating budget problems, leaving provinces to go into revolt, and the army stretched too thin to deal with everything.
- Amezarak 9y ago
  The Gothic emigration much more resembled the emigration of the Cimbri or the Teutons than it did the resettlement of a few ten thousand peoples around the empire. The Goths were relatively barbarian, fundamentally hostile to the empire except in the dire emergency precipitated by the Huns, and further, the original Gothic revolt predated the problems you're talking about and the defeat of the Romans in the field. It was also almost certainly much more than a few ten thousands, despite the usual tactic of modern historians who downplay numbers in general with handwavy arguments about how that's just not possible, etc. and discount the accounts of contemporary sources without any hard evidence contradicting them. > It was thought expedient that an accurate account should be taken of their numbers; but the persons who were employed soon desisted, with amazement and dismay, from the prosecution of the endless and impracticable task;(67) and the principal historian of the age most seriously affirms that the prodigious armies of Darius and Xerxes, which had so long been considered as the fables of vain and credulous antiquity, were now justified, in the eyes of mankind, by the evidence of fact and experience. A probable testimony has fixed the number of the Gothic warriors at two hundred thousand men; and if we can venture to add the just proportion of women, of children, and of slaves, the whole mass of people which composed this formidable emigration must have amounted to near a million of persons, of both sexes and of all ages. http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth If they had numbered only a few ten thousand, the Roman logistics system would not have struggled so much to keep them fed, nor would it have been a major problem to account for them all.
  - boomboomsubban 9y ago
    >The Goths were relatively barbarian, fundamentally hostile to the empire except in the dire emergency precipitated by the Huns, and further, the original Gothic revolt predated the problems you're talking about and the defeat of the Romans in the field The Goths were a major part of the Roman army for a century before the uprising discussed, and the famine and pestilence were also becoming a major issue around the same time. And the Goths were no more barbarian than much of Caesar's army, their hostility came from the overall problems the empire faced. >If they had numbered only a few ten thousand, the Roman logistics system would not have struggled so much to keep them fed, nor would it have been a major problem to account for them all. The empire was struggling to feed itself, even a relatively small number of people in one area can cause problems. And the contemporary sources are dismissed because we know the things written down are propaganda based largely on guesswork. Modern historians realize a million people suddenly showing up would leave a massive archaeological record that isn't there.
neals 9y ago
Now that does sound familiar ...
tomohawk 9y ago
Those "barbarians" were leaving the north due to being unable to grow enough food to feed their families, which was due to global cooling. Like the Vikings, the Romans were at their zenith during a warming period.
- Amezarak 9y ago
  The Goths were driven into the empire by the Huns. Nor, as other commenters said, had the Romans permitted anything like it before. > But the attention of the emperor was most seriously engaged by the important intelligence which he received from the civil and military officers who were intrusted with the defence of the Danube. He was informed that the North was agitated by a furious tempest; that the irruption of the Huns, an unknown and monstrous race of savages, had subverted the power of the Goths; and that the suppliant multitudes of that warlike nation, whose pride was now humbled in the dust, covered a space many miles along the banks of the river. With outstretched arms and pathetic lamentations they loudly deplored their past misfortunes and their present danger; acknowledged that their only hope of safety was in the clemency of the Roman government; and most solemnly protested that, if the gracious liberality of the emperor would permit them to cultivate the waste lands of Thrace, they should ever hold themselves bound, by the strongest obligations of duty and gratitude, to obey the laws and to guard the limits of the republic. These assurances were confirmed by the ambassadors of the Goths, who impatiently expected from the mouth of Valens an answer that must finally determine the fate of their unhappy countrymen. The emperor of the East was no longer guided by the wisdom and authority of his elder brother, A.D. 375, Nov 17.whose death happened towards the end of the preceding year; and as the distressful situation of the Goths required an instant and peremptory decision, he was deprived of the favourite resource of feeble and timid minds, who consider the use of the dilatory and ambiguous measures as the most admirable efforts of consummate prudence. As long as the same passions and interests subsist among mankind, the questions of war and peace, of justice and policy, which were debated in the councils of antiquity, will frequently present themselves as the subject of modern deliberation. But the most experienced statesman of Europe has never been summoned to consider the propriety or the danger of admitting or rejecting an innumerable multitude of barbarians, who are driven by despair and hunger to solicit a settlement on the territories of a civilised nation. When that important proposition, so essentially connected with the public safety, was referred to the ministers of Valens, they were perplexed and divided; but they soon acquiesced in the flattering sentiment which seemed the most favourable to the pride, the indolence, and the avarice of their sovereign. The slaves, who were decorated with the titles of praefects and generals, dissembled or disregarded the terrors of this national emigration—so extremely different from the partial and accidental colonies which had been received on the extreme limits of the empire. http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth
charlesism 9y ago
Actually, the chief culprit was permitting tens of thousands of fusion-guitar players to enter the empire. My feelings about fusion-guitarists have nothing to do with that fact.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  Fusion-guitarists are a problem for any civilization. I mean, look what they did to the Aztecs. Fusion-drummers, on the other hand, are really cute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C3Nml8IBf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C3Nml8IBf0

by mci 9y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago

Rome didn't allow them to integrate.

Amezarak 9y ago
In fact, one of the Roman demands permitting their emigration was that they surrender the children of the wealthy and powerful to be raised as Romans; this hostage-taking as typical of the times and an effective means of assimilation and integration, as the children generally returned home with Roman ideas in their head. The immediate cause of the first Gothic revolt was that the Romans simply could not logistically supply the massive number of Goths, the Goths bribed their way out of surrendering their arms as they were required to do, and when the (hungry) Goths encountered a town market they were not allowed to go to (so as to not drive up food prices for local citizens to exorbitant prices), they decided to take what they wanted by force, killing anyone in the way. Then when the Romans attempted to punish them, they decided all agreements were off.

boomboomsubban 9y ago

They had let tens of thousands of outsiders in before without issue. The difference here was the Goths beat the Romans on the field, forcing Rome to accept a bad deal. This was a result of a long period of famine and pestilence creating budget problems, leaving provinces to go into revolt, and the army stretched too thin to deal with everything.

Amezarak 9y ago
The Gothic emigration much more resembled the emigration of the Cimbri or the Teutons than it did the resettlement of a few ten thousand peoples around the empire. The Goths were relatively barbarian, fundamentally hostile to the empire except in the dire emergency precipitated by the Huns, and further, the original Gothic revolt predated the problems you're talking about and the defeat of the Romans in the field. It was also almost certainly much more than a few ten thousands, despite the usual tactic of modern historians who downplay numbers in general with handwavy arguments about how that's just not possible, etc. and discount the accounts of contemporary sources without any hard evidence contradicting them. > It was thought expedient that an accurate account should be taken of their numbers; but the persons who were employed soon desisted, with amazement and dismay, from the prosecution of the endless and impracticable task;(67) and the principal historian of the age most seriously affirms that the prodigious armies of Darius and Xerxes, which had so long been considered as the fables of vain and credulous antiquity, were now justified, in the eyes of mankind, by the evidence of fact and experience. A probable testimony has fixed the number of the Gothic warriors at two hundred thousand men; and if we can venture to add the just proportion of women, of children, and of slaves, the whole mass of people which composed this formidable emigration must have amounted to near a million of persons, of both sexes and of all ages. http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth If they had numbered only a few ten thousand, the Roman logistics system would not have struggled so much to keep them fed, nor would it have been a major problem to account for them all.
- boomboomsubban 9y ago
  >The Goths were relatively barbarian, fundamentally hostile to the empire except in the dire emergency precipitated by the Huns, and further, the original Gothic revolt predated the problems you're talking about and the defeat of the Romans in the field The Goths were a major part of the Roman army for a century before the uprising discussed, and the famine and pestilence were also becoming a major issue around the same time. And the Goths were no more barbarian than much of Caesar's army, their hostility came from the overall problems the empire faced. >If they had numbered only a few ten thousand, the Roman logistics system would not have struggled so much to keep them fed, nor would it have been a major problem to account for them all. The empire was struggling to feed itself, even a relatively small number of people in one area can cause problems. And the contemporary sources are dismissed because we know the things written down are propaganda based largely on guesswork. Modern historians realize a million people suddenly showing up would leave a massive archaeological record that isn't there.

neals 9y ago

Now that does sound familiar ...

tomohawk 9y ago

Those "barbarians" were leaving the north due to being unable to grow enough food to feed their families, which was due to global cooling. Like the Vikings, the Romans were at their zenith during a warming period.

Amezarak 9y ago
The Goths were driven into the empire by the Huns. Nor, as other commenters said, had the Romans permitted anything like it before. > But the attention of the emperor was most seriously engaged by the important intelligence which he received from the civil and military officers who were intrusted with the defence of the Danube. He was informed that the North was agitated by a furious tempest; that the irruption of the Huns, an unknown and monstrous race of savages, had subverted the power of the Goths; and that the suppliant multitudes of that warlike nation, whose pride was now humbled in the dust, covered a space many miles along the banks of the river. With outstretched arms and pathetic lamentations they loudly deplored their past misfortunes and their present danger; acknowledged that their only hope of safety was in the clemency of the Roman government; and most solemnly protested that, if the gracious liberality of the emperor would permit them to cultivate the waste lands of Thrace, they should ever hold themselves bound, by the strongest obligations of duty and gratitude, to obey the laws and to guard the limits of the republic. These assurances were confirmed by the ambassadors of the Goths, who impatiently expected from the mouth of Valens an answer that must finally determine the fate of their unhappy countrymen. The emperor of the East was no longer guided by the wisdom and authority of his elder brother, A.D. 375, Nov 17.whose death happened towards the end of the preceding year; and as the distressful situation of the Goths required an instant and peremptory decision, he was deprived of the favourite resource of feeble and timid minds, who consider the use of the dilatory and ambiguous measures as the most admirable efforts of consummate prudence. As long as the same passions and interests subsist among mankind, the questions of war and peace, of justice and policy, which were debated in the councils of antiquity, will frequently present themselves as the subject of modern deliberation. But the most experienced statesman of Europe has never been summoned to consider the propriety or the danger of admitting or rejecting an innumerable multitude of barbarians, who are driven by despair and hunger to solicit a settlement on the territories of a civilised nation. When that important proposition, so essentially connected with the public safety, was referred to the ministers of Valens, they were perplexed and divided; but they soon acquiesced in the flattering sentiment which seemed the most favourable to the pride, the indolence, and the avarice of their sovereign. The slaves, who were decorated with the titles of praefects and generals, dissembled or disregarded the terrors of this national emigration—so extremely different from the partial and accidental colonies which had been received on the extreme limits of the empire. http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth http://www.ccel.org/g/gibbon/decline/volume1/chap26.htm#goth

charlesism 9y ago

Actually, the chief culprit was permitting tens of thousands of fusion-guitar players to enter the empire. My feelings about fusion-guitarists have nothing to do with that fact.

woodandsteel 9y ago
Fusion-guitarists are a problem for any civilization. I mean, look what they did to the Aztecs. Fusion-drummers, on the other hand, are really cute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C3Nml8IBf0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C3Nml8IBf0