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You’re not helping. He brought up reasonable sounding criticisms and you responded with nothing but derisive insults. I respect your work but you’re making you

You’re not helping. He brought up reasonable sounding criticisms and you responded with nothing but derisive insults. I respect your work but you’re making yourself look bad here. You appear to think he’s way off the mark technically so it should be easy to address his points, no?

jasonwatkinspdx 9y ago
Don't expect much. I've been on email lists with PHK since the 90's. He's never shown any sign of interest in behavior other than what you see above.
- jeremiep 9y ago
  Reading this thread reminds me of what Alan Kay said a few years ago: - The Internet was done so well that most people think of it as a natural resource like the Pacific Ocean, rather than something that was man-made. When was the last time a technology with a scale like that was so error-free? The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs. I've been doing web dev for over 15 years and this quote is pretty much how I would describe the web development scene.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  He doesn’t owe me anything: I use his work for free after all. I can merely try to open a dialogue about it. I can totally understand him being tired and irritated about criticism like this - running large, popular, OSS project sucks from that perspective
phkamp 9y ago
No, they're not "reasonably sounding". Take for instance "but you're still going to be dropping performance on the floor vs other I/O models as you get into the 1000s of connections" Notice how it was written in passive voice, without any references to personal or 3rd party experience, and with nebulous hand-wavy numbers which can literally mean anything ? Well, he had to write it that way because he could not find any hard evidence to back it up anywhere, could he ? Here's some "reasonably sounding" information for you: builtwith.com reports that one eighth of the 10k largest web properties run Varnish. They would hardly do that, if performance "dropped on the floor" with "1000s of connections", would they ? You know what an actual Varnish users commented about performance after deploying Varnish on one of the worlds largest news sites? He made jokes about the servers being so bored that they were making grilled cheese sandwiches. No that comment is classical trolling: Technically sounding bla-bla, based on random google results, but totally removed from the legitimate and relevant critiques actual Varnish users bring.
- the_duke 9y ago
  You still have not addressed any of the technical concerns raised by OP, but rather brought up some meaningless anecdotes. Why don't you refute the claims regarding IO models (event based vs threading) instead, engaging in a proper discussion? That would also prevent the downvotes you are receiving.
  - phkamp 9y ago
    Moving a fifth of all HTTP traffic is not a meaningless anecdote in my vocabulary. And engaging in a debate about irelevant technical details applicability in Varnish, with a person who clearly has never actually run Varnish ? I have better things to do on a saturday.
  - CJefferson 9y ago
    I'm not sure what you would want to see. The original post said, without evidence "vanish is unusably slow". Plainly, many large websites are using it successfully. How would one disprove accusations of slowness, without evidence, citations or benchmarks?
  - sjwright 9y ago
    "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  Thank you for responding. I am an actual Varnish user btw (via fastly and I use it locally for testing), I quite like it. While much of the original comment was anecdotal the fact Fastly has extensively worked on custom subsystems for it is not wrong, correct? Addressing why they had to (and the original comments speculation/accusation about that) would be helpful in clearing up any confusion. The OP was absolutely too aggressive in his comment, so I understand why you’re very defensive.
  - phkamp 9y ago

jasonwatkinspdx 9y ago

Don't expect much. I've been on email lists with PHK since the 90's. He's never shown any sign of interest in behavior other than what you see above.

jeremiep 9y ago
Reading this thread reminds me of what Alan Kay said a few years ago: - The Internet was done so well that most people think of it as a natural resource like the Pacific Ocean, rather than something that was man-made. When was the last time a technology with a scale like that was so error-free? The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs. I've been doing web dev for over 15 years and this quote is pretty much how I would describe the web development scene.
abritinthebay 9y ago
He doesn’t owe me anything: I use his work for free after all. I can merely try to open a dialogue about it. I can totally understand him being tired and irritated about criticism like this - running large, popular, OSS project sucks from that perspective

phkamp 9y ago

No, they're not "reasonably sounding". Take for instance "but you're still going to be dropping performance on the floor vs other I/O models as you get into the 1000s of connections" Notice how it was written in passive voice, without any references to personal or 3rd party experience, and with nebulous hand-wavy numbers which can literally mean anything ? Well, he had to write it that way because he could not find any hard evidence to back it up anywhere, could he ? Here's some "reasonably sounding" information for you: builtwith.com reports that one eighth of the 10k largest web properties run Varnish. They would hardly do that, if performance "dropped on the floor" with "1000s of connections", would they ? You know what an actual Varnish users commented about performance after deploying Varnish on one of the worlds largest news sites? He made jokes about the servers being so bored that they were making grilled cheese sandwiches. No that comment is classical trolling: Technically sounding bla-bla, based on random google results, but totally removed from the legitimate and relevant critiques actual Varnish users bring.

the_duke 9y ago
You still have not addressed any of the technical concerns raised by OP, but rather brought up some meaningless anecdotes. Why don't you refute the claims regarding IO models (event based vs threading) instead, engaging in a proper discussion? That would also prevent the downvotes you are receiving.
- phkamp 9y ago
  Moving a fifth of all HTTP traffic is not a meaningless anecdote in my vocabulary. And engaging in a debate about irelevant technical details applicability in Varnish, with a person who clearly has never actually run Varnish ? I have better things to do on a saturday.
- CJefferson 9y ago
  I'm not sure what you would want to see. The original post said, without evidence "vanish is unusably slow". Plainly, many large websites are using it successfully. How would one disprove accusations of slowness, without evidence, citations or benchmarks?
- sjwright 9y ago
  "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
abritinthebay 9y ago
Thank you for responding. I am an actual Varnish user btw (via fastly and I use it locally for testing), I quite like it. While much of the original comment was anecdotal the fact Fastly has extensively worked on custom subsystems for it is not wrong, correct? Addressing why they had to (and the original comments speculation/accusation about that) would be helpful in clearing up any confusion. The OP was absolutely too aggressive in his comment, so I understand why you’re very defensive.
- phkamp 9y ago