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A personal automobile is the single most expensive form of transportation (except for a private jet, of course) on a per mile basis. Reasons around palatability

by uiri 9y ago

A personal automobile is the single most expensive form of transportation (except for a private jet, of course) on a per mile basis. Reasons around palatability (it's also the most dangerous form of transportation) aside, it doesn't matter how "affordable" housing is in a driving-only neighborhood when you're talking about people who don't have enough money to afford a car in the first place.

chroem- 9y ago
Let's do some napkin math and put these assertions to the test. Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Seattle, WA is $1869 a month [1]. A PugetPass costs about $80 a month. Living in Seattle without a car costs $1949 a month, or $23.4k a year. Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in St. Louis, MO is $817 a month [2]. A decent used car that will last at least four years before needing maintenance costs a total of $4000, or an average of $83 a month. The national average for car insurance is $815 a year [3] (Missouri's is even lower), coming out to $68 a month. Now let's assume your used car gets a modest 25MPG, gas costs $3.00 a gallon, and your work is 15 miles away, plus you drive 20 miles on weekends. That's $82 a month in gas. Living with a car in St. Louis costs $1050 a month, or $12.6k a year. Living with a car in a driveable city is $900/month and $10.8k/year cheaper than living in a non-driveable city. By this metric, non-driveable cities have housing that is 85% more expensive. [1] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/se... [2] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/saint-louis/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/sa... [3] https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-cost/ https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-...
- kahnpro 9y ago
  This is going to depend a lot on which non-drivable city you choose. I thought Seattle was particularly expensive? I lived in Montreal and paid C$675 / month for a 1 bedroom apartment 5 minutes from a metro station and another C$79 per month for monthly STM pass. Throw in a few trips outside the city with a rental car and we're still under C$10k.
  - chroem- 9y ago
    Montreal seems to be an outlier according to https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-does-montreal-maintain-its-enviably-low-rents/article31285810/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-does-montr... There are also much cheaper driveable cities (e.g. Knoxville, TN) and much more expensive non-driveable cities (e.g. San Francisco, CA). Also, more realistically, you would probably be commuting to the city center if you were driving. Rent in the suburb of Florissant, MO is only $618 a month [1]. And the average gas price in St. Louis is only $2.28 a gallon [2], and insurance in Missouri costs an average of only $57 a month [3]. That brings the cost of housing down to $820 a month or $9.8k a year. I'm sure you could get a cheaper and more reliable car as well. [1] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/florissant-city/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/fl... [2] https://www.gasbuddy.com/USA/MO https://www.gasbuddy.com/USA/MO [3] https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-cost/ https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-...
- uiri 9y ago
  Median household income in Saint Louis is roughly $60k. Median household income in Seattle is roughly $80k. Even after taxes, you'll have more money leftover after rent & transportation without a car in a city like Seattle than you will after rent & transportation in a car-oriented town like St Louis.
  - chroem- 9y ago
    $60k a year in St. Louis dollars translates to $94k a year in Seattle dollars. So that assertion is false. https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/st-louis-vs-seattle https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare...
    - uiri 9y ago
      That calculator explicitly assumes a car-oriented existence in both places. Taking their 157% factor at face value, $10.8k for a car in St Louis is $17k in Seattle. So $80k without a car is equivalent to $97k with a car. Or $60k with a car is equivalent to $49.2k without a car in Saint Louis. Either way, the income level in Seattle is slightly better.

by uiri 9y ago

chroem- 9y ago

Let's do some napkin math and put these assertions to the test. Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Seattle, WA is $1869 a month [1]. A PugetPass costs about $80 a month. Living in Seattle without a car costs $1949 a month, or $23.4k a year. Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in St. Louis, MO is $817 a month [2]. A decent used car that will last at least four years before needing maintenance costs a total of $4000, or an average of $83 a month. The national average for car insurance is $815 a year [3] (Missouri's is even lower), coming out to $68 a month. Now let's assume your used car gets a modest 25MPG, gas costs $3.00 a gallon, and your work is 15 miles away, plus you drive 20 miles on weekends. That's $82 a month in gas. Living with a car in St. Louis costs $1050 a month, or $12.6k a year. Living with a car in a driveable city is $900/month and $10.8k/year cheaper than living in a non-driveable city. By this metric, non-driveable cities have housing that is 85% more expensive. [1] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/se... [2] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/saint-louis/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/sa... [3] https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-cost/ https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-...

kahnpro 9y ago
This is going to depend a lot on which non-drivable city you choose. I thought Seattle was particularly expensive? I lived in Montreal and paid C$675 / month for a 1 bedroom apartment 5 minutes from a metro station and another C$79 per month for monthly STM pass. Throw in a few trips outside the city with a rental car and we're still under C$10k.
- chroem- 9y ago
  Montreal seems to be an outlier according to https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-does-montreal-maintain-its-enviably-low-rents/article31285810/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-does-montr... There are also much cheaper driveable cities (e.g. Knoxville, TN) and much more expensive non-driveable cities (e.g. San Francisco, CA). Also, more realistically, you would probably be commuting to the city center if you were driving. Rent in the suburb of Florissant, MO is only $618 a month [1]. And the average gas price in St. Louis is only $2.28 a gallon [2], and insurance in Missouri costs an average of only $57 a month [3]. That brings the cost of housing down to $820 a month or $9.8k a year. I'm sure you could get a cheaper and more reliable car as well. [1] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/florissant-city/ https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/mo/fl... [2] https://www.gasbuddy.com/USA/MO https://www.gasbuddy.com/USA/MO [3] https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-cost/ https://www.thesimpledollar.com/how-much-does-car-insurance-...
uiri 9y ago
Median household income in Saint Louis is roughly $60k. Median household income in Seattle is roughly $80k. Even after taxes, you'll have more money leftover after rent & transportation without a car in a city like Seattle than you will after rent & transportation in a car-oriented town like St Louis.
- chroem- 9y ago
  $60k a year in St. Louis dollars translates to $94k a year in Seattle dollars. So that assertion is false. https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/st-louis-vs-seattle https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare...
  - uiri 9y ago
    That calculator explicitly assumes a car-oriented existence in both places. Taking their 157% factor at face value, $10.8k for a car in St Louis is $17k in Seattle. So $80k without a car is equivalent to $97k with a car. Or $60k with a car is equivalent to $49.2k without a car in Saint Louis. Either way, the income level in Seattle is slightly better.