7 ms·

Given I’m no fan of red light cameras already, your idea of 24/7 automated city wide traffic enforcement sounds dystopic and ripe for abuse through ever more gr

by dahdum 9y ago

Given I’m no fan of red light cameras already, your idea of 24/7 automated city wide traffic enforcement sounds dystopic and ripe for abuse through ever more granular infractions and escalating penalties. I’d rather cyclists continue to be annoyed than everyone suffer under that.

zdw 9y ago
I think you're redefining "everyone" as "people who drive cars" here, and cyclists as "non-everyone".
- dahdum 9y ago
  I believe the growth of automated police enforcement affects everyone, but it's true that drivers would feel this impact the most.
- Spivak 9y ago
  Edit: Since we're talking about NYC someone who replied to me has more specific data. Roughly 2.5% of commuters use bikes in the city. Obviously it's going to be much less in suburbs and rural areas that aren't as densely packed. Some rough napkin calculations: Number of cyclists [1]: 786,000 Number of vehicles [2]: 263,000,000 Does 99.8% of people not count as everyone in a discussion like this? If you could make a change that improved the daily lives of 99% of people wouldn't that be the easiest policy decision in your life? [1] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-86.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-86.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_Unit...
  - dahdum 9y ago
    For NYC in particular there are better stats (2014): "About 86,000 adult New Yorkers, 2.5% of all commuting residents, usually bike to work or school" [1] [1] http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/cyclinginthecity.shtml http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/cyclinginthecity...
    - Spivak 9y ago
      Sweet! I'll edit my comment.
  - paulcole 9y ago
    More people cycling improves life for everyone, even the drivers.
  - discoursism 9y ago
    Don't forget that cars are much less than 50% here, and bus commuters are among the people that stand to benefit.
  - hannasanarion 9y ago
    Why are you using nationwide numbers to address a NYC-local problem. In New York, only 25% of people drive to work, and in Manhattan it's 5%. Why do they get free rein to block the single lane allotted for 95% of people, in addition to the two-four lanes that they are allotted?
    - ptaipale 9y ago
      I'd expect the bike lane blocking problem is not really because of people who "drive to work"; it's because of deliveries, repairs, maintenance and such. (At least where I ride, that's >95 % of bike path disturbances).
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        Where I ride it's usually taxi or other TLC vehicles just parked there, doing nothing. Usually on break or waiting for a pickup.
        ptaipale 9y ago
        Yes, but even taxis aren't "driving to work", they are at work.
        CydeWeys 9y ago
        They can be "at work" somewhere other than illegally parked in the bike lane waiting around or on break.
        ptaipale 9y ago
        Of course they can, and should, but this does not make it relevant to bring in the argument "only 25% of people drive to work".
        CydeWeys 9y ago
        I still don't understand how this is relevant. You are not allowed to park in bike lanes, full stop. It doesn't matter why you are going somewhere; it's still illegal regardless of whether you're going to work, or going shopping, or whatever. Given that most people in Manhattan do not drive, it makes sense to prioritize non-drivers over drivers.
  - rconti 9y ago
    Cool, so if we make it suck less to ride the bus or bicycle, we'll have more of both, and more commuters will fit in less space. Win/win.
  - verbify 9y ago
    You're comparing the number of people who cycle to work with the number of cars in the US. That's an odd comparison. In spring 2017, the number of people who have been cycling within the last 12 months amounted to 66.21 million. [Source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/227415/number-of-cyclists-and-bike-riders-usa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/227415/number-of-cyclist...). Given that some people own two vehicles, I think you'll find similar numbers for people who own cars and bicycles. And part of the reason people don't cycle to work is that there aren't safe cycle routes to their work. If you build your infrastructure for cars it forces peoples hand. The Netherlands has extensive cycle friendly roads and adoption is much higher.
Bellspringsteen 9y ago
Yeah I am also concerned about more cameras. Why are you against more cameras? What are your concerns?
- dahdum 9y ago
  Automation of police enforcement allows a precision and completeness in ticketing that was never envisioned while writing the laws or fines. It would only start with blocking bike paths or bus stops. Once the technology is there, there is incredible incentive by the city to expand the scope to generate more revenue, as we've seen with red light camera installations.
  - dahart 9y ago
    I'm all for allowing that particular incentive to run rampant. Running red lights is unsafe and kills innocent people. Are you suggesting running red lights shouldn't be enforced 100% of the time?? Everyone has the option to obey the law! Also not envisioned while writing the laws was a wish for some people to break the law and get away with it. They weren't hoping for partial enforcement, laws are written to communicate the standards under the hope that all people will abide. Enforcement was never intended to be less than perfect, it has always been to do as much as is practical. New technology is making it more practical, but isn't changing anyone's intent. There is no sacred amount of precision or completeness in ticketing that ought to be preserved in the face of improved ability to enforce laws. I'm also hopeful that self-driving cars, and more bike support, and other changes to transportation, make this issue (and it's enforcement) disappear.
    - wl 9y ago
      > Are you suggesting running red lights shouldn't be enforced 100% of the time?? The majority of red light tickets are for people not coming to a complete stop before turning right on red. Quite often, the non-turn lanes aren't even instrumented because it's not profitable. There's also the issue that red light camera vendors encourage shortening the yellow light, which increases revenue and harms safety.

by dahdum 9y ago

zdw 9y ago

I think you're redefining "everyone" as "people who drive cars" here, and cyclists as "non-everyone".

dahdum 9y ago
I believe the growth of automated police enforcement affects everyone, but it's true that drivers would feel this impact the most.
Spivak 9y ago
Edit: Since we're talking about NYC someone who replied to me has more specific data. Roughly 2.5% of commuters use bikes in the city. Obviously it's going to be much less in suburbs and rural areas that aren't as densely packed. Some rough napkin calculations: Number of cyclists [1]: 786,000 Number of vehicles [2]: 263,000,000 Does 99.8% of people not count as everyone in a discussion like this? If you could make a change that improved the daily lives of 99% of people wouldn't that be the easiest policy decision in your life? [1] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-86.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-86.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_Unit...
- dahdum 9y ago
  For NYC in particular there are better stats (2014): "About 86,000 adult New Yorkers, 2.5% of all commuting residents, usually bike to work or school" [1] [1] http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/cyclinginthecity.shtml http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/cyclinginthecity...
  - Spivak 9y ago
    Sweet! I'll edit my comment.
- paulcole 9y ago
  More people cycling improves life for everyone, even the drivers.
- discoursism 9y ago
  Don't forget that cars are much less than 50% here, and bus commuters are among the people that stand to benefit.
- hannasanarion 9y ago
  Why are you using nationwide numbers to address a NYC-local problem. In New York, only 25% of people drive to work, and in Manhattan it's 5%. Why do they get free rein to block the single lane allotted for 95% of people, in addition to the two-four lanes that they are allotted?
  - ptaipale 9y ago
    I'd expect the bike lane blocking problem is not really because of people who "drive to work"; it's because of deliveries, repairs, maintenance and such. (At least where I ride, that's >95 % of bike path disturbances).
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      Where I ride it's usually taxi or other TLC vehicles just parked there, doing nothing. Usually on break or waiting for a pickup.
      - ptaipale 9y ago
        Yes, but even taxis aren't "driving to work", they are at work.
        CydeWeys 9y ago
        They can be "at work" somewhere other than illegally parked in the bike lane waiting around or on break.
        ptaipale 9y ago
        Of course they can, and should, but this does not make it relevant to bring in the argument "only 25% of people drive to work".
        CydeWeys 9y ago
        I still don't understand how this is relevant. You are not allowed to park in bike lanes, full stop. It doesn't matter why you are going somewhere; it's still illegal regardless of whether you're going to work, or going shopping, or whatever. Given that most people in Manhattan do not drive, it makes sense to prioritize non-drivers over drivers.
- rconti 9y ago
  Cool, so if we make it suck less to ride the bus or bicycle, we'll have more of both, and more commuters will fit in less space. Win/win.
- verbify 9y ago
  You're comparing the number of people who cycle to work with the number of cars in the US. That's an odd comparison. In spring 2017, the number of people who have been cycling within the last 12 months amounted to 66.21 million. [Source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/227415/number-of-cyclists-and-bike-riders-usa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/227415/number-of-cyclist...). Given that some people own two vehicles, I think you'll find similar numbers for people who own cars and bicycles. And part of the reason people don't cycle to work is that there aren't safe cycle routes to their work. If you build your infrastructure for cars it forces peoples hand. The Netherlands has extensive cycle friendly roads and adoption is much higher.

Bellspringsteen 9y ago

Yeah I am also concerned about more cameras. Why are you against more cameras? What are your concerns?

dahdum 9y ago
Automation of police enforcement allows a precision and completeness in ticketing that was never envisioned while writing the laws or fines. It would only start with blocking bike paths or bus stops. Once the technology is there, there is incredible incentive by the city to expand the scope to generate more revenue, as we've seen with red light camera installations.
- dahart 9y ago
  I'm all for allowing that particular incentive to run rampant. Running red lights is unsafe and kills innocent people. Are you suggesting running red lights shouldn't be enforced 100% of the time?? Everyone has the option to obey the law! Also not envisioned while writing the laws was a wish for some people to break the law and get away with it. They weren't hoping for partial enforcement, laws are written to communicate the standards under the hope that all people will abide. Enforcement was never intended to be less than perfect, it has always been to do as much as is practical. New technology is making it more practical, but isn't changing anyone's intent. There is no sacred amount of precision or completeness in ticketing that ought to be preserved in the face of improved ability to enforce laws. I'm also hopeful that self-driving cars, and more bike support, and other changes to transportation, make this issue (and it's enforcement) disappear.
  - wl 9y ago
    > Are you suggesting running red lights shouldn't be enforced 100% of the time?? The majority of red light tickets are for people not coming to a complete stop before turning right on red. Quite often, the non-turn lanes aren't even instrumented because it's not profitable. There's also the issue that red light camera vendors encourage shortening the yellow light, which increases revenue and harms safety.