4 ms·

Star Trek has a lot of great aspects, but its model of utopian society is the "benevolent dictator" one. Captain Kirk is the dictator - he's brave, benevolent,

Star Trek has a lot of great aspects, but its model of utopian society is the "benevolent dictator" one. Captain Kirk is the dictator - he's brave, benevolent, incorruptible, and fixes everyone's problems by decree. His minions utterly lack ambition and selfish desires, and are ideally altruistic members of the collective. It's a nice fantasy, but completely unworkable.

Jtsummers 9y ago
Kirk was the captain of a ship, not of society. A ship captain is generally the dictator of their vessel. There are certainly valid criticisms of the quasi-utopian vision of society in Star Trek, but that one ship was not meant as a model or microcosm of how the whole of their society was run. Just one aspect.
- skookumchuck 9y ago
  > Kirk was the captain of a ship, not of society. A ship captain is generally the dictator of their vessel. That's correct, but the Enterprise was clearly written as a metaphor for the perfect society. I've also seen it referred to as such by people wanting to create the perfect society.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jtsummers 9y ago
    > That's correct, but the Enterprise was clearly written as a metaphor for the perfect society. My perspective: I grew up in and around the military, I understand military command structures and I see them as distinct from our overall society. That doesn't mean that there is no place for that sort of structure within a society. Star Trek always appeared to me as representing that military structure within the overall structure of the Federation's society. In fact, most members of the Federation were not members of anything military-like (or so it's claimed in the show, you don't really see too much outside the ship and non-Federation planets). The ship, the Enterprise, never seemed like a metaphor for anything (the Federation, on the other hand, was clearly meant as an analog to the the US and most of Western Europe, or the direction Rodenberry thought they were headed). > I've also seen it referred to as such by people wanting to create the perfect society. I do not doubt that you've seen this. But I've, personally, only heard and read people reference the Federation as a perfect society, not the Enterprise. Until today.
    - skookumchuck 9y ago
      > Until today. Not much is ever seen of the Federation in ST. But the parent I replied to, and its parent, are referring to the Enterprise. Also, when I've seen references to ST as the model of utopia, Captain Kirk is often talked about front and center. Clearly, they are referring to the society on the Enterprise. You can also see in this article cited later in this discussion: http://grantland.com/features/next-generation-turns-25/ http://grantland.com/features/next-generation-turns-25/ with quotes like this: "and Picard’s personification of enlightened humanism"
      - kolpa 9y ago
        Picard was a model of a good leader. That doesn't mean a spaceship command is a model for how all society functions.
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    What I find ironic is on the set William Shatner was a dictator on set too. Get had huge amount of power on that set. I never understood why the other actors didn't seem to like the guy, until I heard this, 'He would refuse to do an episode if he didn't have more face time.' It really bothered me when I heard that. As a kid, I worshiped the guy. I remember being in 7th grade, and a kid asked me why I wore a tan polyester tee shirt--every day. My response, because the Hang Ten shirt reminds me of something Capt. Kirk would wear. The kids laid into me, but since I was stronger, it didn't go too far. My sexy science teacher overheard the conversation, and made me her assistant. My God did I want her to molest me in that supply room. (Different time folks.). Well she never did, but she shared my love of Star Trek. We used to talk about the good episodes while cleaning Pyrex. Boy do I miss her. I remember my heart was broken when I saw her at the beach with her boyfriend. They were kissing. I remember wishing I was older.
creep 9y ago
In Enterprise Picard was similar but often had his missteps and faults, which were usually helped along by the empath. Enterprise is what I was mainly speaking to, actually.
- deleted 9y ago
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krapp 9y ago
The original Star Trek and Captain Kirk as a character were much closer to portraying a "Navy in space" than the socialist ideals that would start to creep into TNG. Although I find your criticism to be fair for TNG itself - when Roddenberry had greater creative control and the Federation began to be developer as having evolved beyond petty human desire and conflict, although there were some exceptions because sometimes the writers didn't get the memo (Barclay's OCD tendencies and Geordi keeping a holographic girlfriend come to mind) and it's just impossible to write good drama where all of the characters are just insufferably perfect. Even Superman has to have kryptonite. But TOS is the series where McCoy is pretty openly racist towards Spock and where people get into fistfights all the time - it's a lot more grounded in plausible reality.

Jtsummers 9y ago

Kirk was the captain of a ship, not of society. A ship captain is generally the dictator of their vessel. There are certainly valid criticisms of the quasi-utopian vision of society in Star Trek, but that one ship was not meant as a model or microcosm of how the whole of their society was run. Just one aspect.

skookumchuck 9y ago
> Kirk was the captain of a ship, not of society. A ship captain is generally the dictator of their vessel. That's correct, but the Enterprise was clearly written as a metaphor for the perfect society. I've also seen it referred to as such by people wanting to create the perfect society.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Jtsummers 9y ago
  > That's correct, but the Enterprise was clearly written as a metaphor for the perfect society. My perspective: I grew up in and around the military, I understand military command structures and I see them as distinct from our overall society. That doesn't mean that there is no place for that sort of structure within a society. Star Trek always appeared to me as representing that military structure within the overall structure of the Federation's society. In fact, most members of the Federation were not members of anything military-like (or so it's claimed in the show, you don't really see too much outside the ship and non-Federation planets). The ship, the Enterprise, never seemed like a metaphor for anything (the Federation, on the other hand, was clearly meant as an analog to the the US and most of Western Europe, or the direction Rodenberry thought they were headed). > I've also seen it referred to as such by people wanting to create the perfect society. I do not doubt that you've seen this. But I've, personally, only heard and read people reference the Federation as a perfect society, not the Enterprise. Until today.
  - skookumchuck 9y ago
    > Until today. Not much is ever seen of the Federation in ST. But the parent I replied to, and its parent, are referring to the Enterprise. Also, when I've seen references to ST as the model of utopia, Captain Kirk is often talked about front and center. Clearly, they are referring to the society on the Enterprise. You can also see in this article cited later in this discussion: http://grantland.com/features/next-generation-turns-25/ http://grantland.com/features/next-generation-turns-25/ with quotes like this: "and Picard’s personification of enlightened humanism"
    - kolpa 9y ago
      Picard was a model of a good leader. That doesn't mean a spaceship command is a model for how all society functions.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  What I find ironic is on the set William Shatner was a dictator on set too. Get had huge amount of power on that set. I never understood why the other actors didn't seem to like the guy, until I heard this, 'He would refuse to do an episode if he didn't have more face time.' It really bothered me when I heard that. As a kid, I worshiped the guy. I remember being in 7th grade, and a kid asked me why I wore a tan polyester tee shirt--every day. My response, because the Hang Ten shirt reminds me of something Capt. Kirk would wear. The kids laid into me, but since I was stronger, it didn't go too far. My sexy science teacher overheard the conversation, and made me her assistant. My God did I want her to molest me in that supply room. (Different time folks.). Well she never did, but she shared my love of Star Trek. We used to talk about the good episodes while cleaning Pyrex. Boy do I miss her. I remember my heart was broken when I saw her at the beach with her boyfriend. They were kissing. I remember wishing I was older.

creep 9y ago

In Enterprise Picard was similar but often had his missteps and faults, which were usually helped along by the empath. Enterprise is what I was mainly speaking to, actually.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

krapp 9y ago

The original Star Trek and Captain Kirk as a character were much closer to portraying a "Navy in space" than the socialist ideals that would start to creep into TNG. Although I find your criticism to be fair for TNG itself - when Roddenberry had greater creative control and the Federation began to be developer as having evolved beyond petty human desire and conflict, although there were some exceptions because sometimes the writers didn't get the memo (Barclay's OCD tendencies and Geordi keeping a holographic girlfriend come to mind) and it's just impossible to write good drama where all of the characters are just insufferably perfect. Even Superman has to have kryptonite. But TOS is the series where McCoy is pretty openly racist towards Spock and where people get into fistfights all the time - it's a lot more grounded in plausible reality.