8 ms·

I grew up on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood; it was still in production when I was a child. I still occasionally hear criticism of the show as being unrealistic, tha

I grew up on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood; it was still in production when I was a child. I still occasionally hear criticism of the show as being unrealistic, that it papered over things or was shallow or ungrounded. As if children's perception, compared to adults, is particularly realistic, deep or stable! What adult worries about going down the drain after a bath? Who understands the deep, existential angst a child feels looking over the precipice as the two most important people in their lives "suddenly" aren't together anymore? Rogers' genius was to take what was meaningful to a child and speak frankly about that. He never belittled those anxieties; he merely explained them and what they could do. And if there wasn't anything they could actually do, he could at least convince them the world would not end. The show represented an idealism that you just don't see anymore. I was too young to have seen the episodes first-run where black community members were simply introduced, without fanfare, but that's exactly how he would have done it. Of course black people live in our city. Lots of people live in our city. They're just like you and me. They have the same jobs and live in the same houses because why shouldn't they? It wasn't polarized or political, it wasn't beating people over the head for not believing what he believed. It was simply matter-of-fact. When he did the Emmys in 1997, you saw that idealism in practice. Of course there are special people in your lives who brought you to where you are today. Why wouldn't you honour them? And people obeyed, for he was right. (If you don't know this story, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Rogers#Emmys_for_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Rogers#Emmys_for_programm... .) I have a DVD of some of the episodes with a little toy cardigan wrapped around them. I was quite upset when he passed away, even with a graduate degree by then. As a moral authority, there couldn't have been one much better in the United States.

neaden 9y ago
I agree. In terms of being unrealistic I think it is important that we have to be able to picture a better world if we are going to obtain it. You want kids to know that certain things don't have to be the way they are, that the world can be a different place.
- gerbilly 9y ago
  Exactly. Another notable show that tried to represent the future 'as it should be' was Star Trek. It had a Russian and a black woman as officers an 'alien' as 2nd in command etc...
  - creep 9y ago
    Star Trek, to me, is more realistic to the inner workings of ourselves as social members and as individual minds/hearts than any other program that has before or since existed. It shows what the unknown feels like, it shows how each person is not only a member of the whole but also a complete whole in and of themselves, it shows not only compassion when things go wrong but also justice (angry justice or not). Everything is there on the final frontier! Literally the limits of human attainment and a drama within that exact scenario.
    - alexashka 9y ago
      For those who don't know much about it - can you recommend which series to watch? I googled it and there seems to be a great deal of variety.
      - Erlangolem 9y ago
        The original is a great place to start, especially if you don’t mind older media. The first 3 original movies are also exceptional. After that comes Star Trek: The Next Generation, which is my personal favorite. If you’re still hooked, and don’t mind a change of pace and scenery (and in both cases, a slow start) Star Trek: Deep Space 9, and later Voyager would be the order for it.
      - creep 9y ago
        I recommend The Next Generation. I find the crew in that series to be more variable and interesting, and the production is obviously more modern. You might be interested in the crew member Data, who is an android, considering the tech nature of HN!
mnemonicsloth 9y ago
> [Black people] are just like you and me. They have the same jobs and live in the same houses because why shouldn't they? It wasn't polarized or political... There was a debate going on in America when Mr. Rogers made those shows. There were two sides. Exactly one of them was represented in Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Telling one side of the story and pretending the other doesn't exist is the Platonic ideal of polarization. I'm not apologizing for the racists here. What they believe is repugnant. But we should remember that in suppressing them we have done things that a lot of people would object to in other circumstances.
- nitrogen 9y ago
  I think what the quoted passage was trying to convey is that Mr. Rogers wasn't polarizing or political in the way community diversity was presented.
- hexane360 9y ago
  This is important to understand because attitudes like GP's affect views on current actions. If you think the forward progress that people look back on fondly was easy and uncontroversial, you'll object to any forward progress that seems hard or divisive.
- stinkytaco 9y ago
  Everything could be argued to have two sides. There are still racists who argue that their view is legitimate, but that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to give it an airing. I think Rogers was not polarizing because he delivered his views in a calm, measured and reasoned manner. Polarizing statements are ones deliberately calculated to reduce someone else's view or accusing the other side of something to advance your own views.
  - mnemonicsloth 9y ago
    > Polarizing statements are ones deliberately calculated to reduce someone else's view or accusing the other side of something to advance your own views. But that's exactly what he did. He wanted to reduce the power of racism. He deliberately targeted a receptive audience -- children too young to have internalized the racist worldview. His goal was to advance his own views on tolerance and racial equality. I think you've been blinded by that "calm, measured and reasoned manner" you mention. Yes he was calm and measured and reasoned and, of course, morally right. But that's just the surface. Look underneath, at what he did, at what he said and how he said it, and you'll find he was using the same tricks of persuasion that underlie all political discourse, from Pol Pot to Abraham Lincoln.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
After he died, someone put up a billboard in our town. It showed a sweater on a hanger, and just said, "We'll miss you, neighbor." It moved me to tears. In fact, it still does. And I didn't even watch the show very much.
dizzystar 9y ago
I've read a few accounts where he made the audience break down like that. Of course, none of those are televised, but his impact on the generation that watched him is larger than himself, yet he was large enough to fit in his own shadow. It's hard to know how TV has impacted the children who watched it. When I was older, I remember seeing kids watching Barney and Teletubbies and... It goes without saying that Barney could never stand at the Emmys and taken seriously. I'm not sure who could be a Mr Rogers v2. Unfortunately, I have no way of articulating my thoughts without sounding like a curmudgeon. I don't really know how the shows I grew up on, like Sesame Street, Letter People, and Reading Rainbow shaped my attitudes growing up, for better or worse. I just know that Mr Rogers would be the most likely to be acknowledge by an older generation without being them being embarrassed about it. He just a human; that human we all wished was our neighbor.
kolpa 9y ago
> I still occasionally hear criticism of the show as being unrealistic, that it papered over things or was shallow or ungrounded. Where do you hear that? Shallow or ungrounded compared to what? GI Joe? Caillou? Barney?
kolpa 9y ago
> Of course black people live in our city. Lots of people live in our city. They're just like you and me. For many people, "they" are you and me, not an object lesson to be taught about.
solotronics 9y ago
Some people argue whether morality is totally subjective which I do not think is true. There is definitely a core set of values and actions that are objectively good. Helping others, being truthful to yourself and society, being kind and polite. I always think about Mr. Rogers when I visualize a "good person" he definitely was a huge positive influence in the world and an amazing role model. Perhaps one day there will be a Mr. Rogers religion and I'm fine with that.
vanderZwan 9y ago
> I still occasionally hear criticism of the show as being unrealistic, that it papered over things or was shallow or ungrounded I really don't understand this criticism. On a first-principle basis alone it does not make any sense, because the same is true for any children's cartoon. I know this is anecdotal, but wanting to act out the fantasy in Transformers, Thundercats and whatnot certainly affected the playground in my childhood, why would the opposite part be any different? Also, why would people worry about the violence in those series, but not appreciate the better world depicted in this one? Fiction matters.

neaden 9y ago

I agree. In terms of being unrealistic I think it is important that we have to be able to picture a better world if we are going to obtain it. You want kids to know that certain things don't have to be the way they are, that the world can be a different place.

gerbilly 9y ago
Exactly. Another notable show that tried to represent the future 'as it should be' was Star Trek. It had a Russian and a black woman as officers an 'alien' as 2nd in command etc...
- creep 9y ago
  Star Trek, to me, is more realistic to the inner workings of ourselves as social members and as individual minds/hearts than any other program that has before or since existed. It shows what the unknown feels like, it shows how each person is not only a member of the whole but also a complete whole in and of themselves, it shows not only compassion when things go wrong but also justice (angry justice or not). Everything is there on the final frontier! Literally the limits of human attainment and a drama within that exact scenario.
  - alexashka 9y ago
    For those who don't know much about it - can you recommend which series to watch? I googled it and there seems to be a great deal of variety.
    - Erlangolem 9y ago
      The original is a great place to start, especially if you don’t mind older media. The first 3 original movies are also exceptional. After that comes Star Trek: The Next Generation, which is my personal favorite. If you’re still hooked, and don’t mind a change of pace and scenery (and in both cases, a slow start) Star Trek: Deep Space 9, and later Voyager would be the order for it.
    - creep 9y ago
      I recommend The Next Generation. I find the crew in that series to be more variable and interesting, and the production is obviously more modern. You might be interested in the crew member Data, who is an android, considering the tech nature of HN!

mnemonicsloth 9y ago

> [Black people] are just like you and me. They have the same jobs and live in the same houses because why shouldn't they? It wasn't polarized or political... There was a debate going on in America when Mr. Rogers made those shows. There were two sides. Exactly one of them was represented in Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Telling one side of the story and pretending the other doesn't exist is the Platonic ideal of polarization. I'm not apologizing for the racists here. What they believe is repugnant. But we should remember that in suppressing them we have done things that a lot of people would object to in other circumstances.

nitrogen 9y ago
I think what the quoted passage was trying to convey is that Mr. Rogers wasn't polarizing or political in the way community diversity was presented.
hexane360 9y ago
This is important to understand because attitudes like GP's affect views on current actions. If you think the forward progress that people look back on fondly was easy and uncontroversial, you'll object to any forward progress that seems hard or divisive.
stinkytaco 9y ago
Everything could be argued to have two sides. There are still racists who argue that their view is legitimate, but that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to give it an airing. I think Rogers was not polarizing because he delivered his views in a calm, measured and reasoned manner. Polarizing statements are ones deliberately calculated to reduce someone else's view or accusing the other side of something to advance your own views.
- mnemonicsloth 9y ago
  > Polarizing statements are ones deliberately calculated to reduce someone else's view or accusing the other side of something to advance your own views. But that's exactly what he did. He wanted to reduce the power of racism. He deliberately targeted a receptive audience -- children too young to have internalized the racist worldview. His goal was to advance his own views on tolerance and racial equality. I think you've been blinded by that "calm, measured and reasoned manner" you mention. Yes he was calm and measured and reasoned and, of course, morally right. But that's just the surface. Look underneath, at what he did, at what he said and how he said it, and you'll find he was using the same tricks of persuasion that underlie all political discourse, from Pol Pot to Abraham Lincoln.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

After he died, someone put up a billboard in our town. It showed a sweater on a hanger, and just said, "We'll miss you, neighbor." It moved me to tears. In fact, it still does. And I didn't even watch the show very much.

dizzystar 9y ago

I've read a few accounts where he made the audience break down like that. Of course, none of those are televised, but his impact on the generation that watched him is larger than himself, yet he was large enough to fit in his own shadow. It's hard to know how TV has impacted the children who watched it. When I was older, I remember seeing kids watching Barney and Teletubbies and... It goes without saying that Barney could never stand at the Emmys and taken seriously. I'm not sure who could be a Mr Rogers v2. Unfortunately, I have no way of articulating my thoughts without sounding like a curmudgeon. I don't really know how the shows I grew up on, like Sesame Street, Letter People, and Reading Rainbow shaped my attitudes growing up, for better or worse. I just know that Mr Rogers would be the most likely to be acknowledge by an older generation without being them being embarrassed about it. He just a human; that human we all wished was our neighbor.

kolpa 9y ago

> I still occasionally hear criticism of the show as being unrealistic, that it papered over things or was shallow or ungrounded. Where do you hear that? Shallow or ungrounded compared to what? GI Joe? Caillou? Barney?

kolpa 9y ago

> Of course black people live in our city. Lots of people live in our city. They're just like you and me. For many people, "they" are you and me, not an object lesson to be taught about.

solotronics 9y ago

Some people argue whether morality is totally subjective which I do not think is true. There is definitely a core set of values and actions that are objectively good. Helping others, being truthful to yourself and society, being kind and polite. I always think about Mr. Rogers when I visualize a "good person" he definitely was a huge positive influence in the world and an amazing role model. Perhaps one day there will be a Mr. Rogers religion and I'm fine with that.

vanderZwan 9y ago

> I still occasionally hear criticism of the show as being unrealistic, that it papered over things or was shallow or ungrounded I really don't understand this criticism. On a first-principle basis alone it does not make any sense, because the same is true for any children's cartoon. I know this is anecdotal, but wanting to act out the fantasy in Transformers, Thundercats and whatnot certainly affected the playground in my childhood, why would the opposite part be any different? Also, why would people worry about the violence in those series, but not appreciate the better world depicted in this one? Fiction matters.