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This is the part of the conversation when a Canadian points out that federal elections are conducted on straightforward paper ballots where you mark an X next t

by krrrh 9y ago

This is the part of the conversation when a Canadian points out that federal elections are conducted on straightforward paper ballots where you mark an X next to the person’s name. They are hand-counted with reps from all of the parties and election officials present, and it can take hours before the results are ready. No machines and no reason to screw up a process that every one understands. There are a lot of things in our lives that would benefit from greater efficiency, this isn’t one of them. As for the blockchain, do computer books for kids not start with a lesson on GIGO anymore? You still need to trust the information that gets written to the chain is valid.

flush 9y ago
How do they prevent ballot-stuffing? (Not trying to invalidate what you're saying, I'm genuinely curious)
- krrrh 9y ago
  Voter lists (allowing for on-site registration with ID or proof of address), tear-away serial numbers, and checks throughout the process, including the election official initialing the back of the ballot they hand you and confirming their initials are authentic when you come back with it filled out. In reality you usually don’t go more than a dozen feet from them to mark it anyway. There’s a good rundown here: http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm It helps that it is very rare to have a referendum question so you are usually just voting for your local member of parliament. The ballots are very clear: http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/2008_ballot_Canada.jpg http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/... It doesn’t take that long to count by hand, and it’s rare that people don’t accept a result or engage in conspiracy theories and court battles for months after an election. Recounts happen if the results are very close but there is usually very little movement in totals. It is apparently a bit more expensive than using machines but I think it’s worth it. There’s something meaningful and beneficial for a civic culture when everyone votes with a tangible physical act in largely the same way it has been done for 150 years. It’s an unusual but radically inclusive act. Voting by mail is possible by request, but less common, and uses a double envelope system to achieve a similar outcome. http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&document=index&lang=e http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&do...
  - jacques_chester 9y ago
    Australia also has these features in its electoral systems. The measures are simple, highly visible and effective.
specialist 9y ago
Canada's elections are quite amenable to manual tabulation. Color me envious. Years ago, a group of us activists in the USA tried to understand manual counting better. We timed ourselves on mock elections using the "sort and stack" system. It goes about as fast as you'd expect (and reminded me of being a junior bookkeeper reconciling accounts at the end of period, ahhh nostalgia). We also self-funded some official manual recounts, just to get better metrics. It wasn't pretty. USA's elections are generally over complicated, with many races/issues per ballot. To enable efficient manual counting, we'd have to redesign our ballots so that they could be physically separately into federal, state, local sub-ballots, for separate processing. Replacing FPTP with Approval Voting and Proportional Representation would also help.
- krrrh 9y ago
  What if it just took 3 days to count the votes? People looking over each ballot and calling out the results, seconding them, and having someone keep a tally on a big chalkboard. They could even close the markets during the counting process to prevent the rampant speculation from causing wide swings. Does it need to be that efficient? If America can wait 2 months to swear in the new president, surely it can wait 3 days for the results to be counted. It's not like the world stopped spinning in 2000 when it took several weeks to finish the Florida count.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    Florida is a pretty bad example because the Supreme Court ruling was that (1) Bush had to be declared the winner because if the original declared winner was overturned people would lose their faith in the voting system, and (2) resolving the case was taking too long so Florida had to stop trying.
    - krrrh 9y ago
      All true, but the fact that “hanging chad” became part of the national lexicon for a while really speaks to a poorly design ballot.

by krrrh 9y ago

flush 9y ago

How do they prevent ballot-stuffing? (Not trying to invalidate what you're saying, I'm genuinely curious)

krrrh 9y ago
Voter lists (allowing for on-site registration with ID or proof of address), tear-away serial numbers, and checks throughout the process, including the election official initialing the back of the ballot they hand you and confirming their initials are authentic when you come back with it filled out. In reality you usually don’t go more than a dozen feet from them to mark it anyway. There’s a good rundown here: http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm It helps that it is very rare to have a referendum question so you are usually just voting for your local member of parliament. The ballots are very clear: http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/2008_ballot_Canada.jpg http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/... It doesn’t take that long to count by hand, and it’s rare that people don’t accept a result or engage in conspiracy theories and court battles for months after an election. Recounts happen if the results are very close but there is usually very little movement in totals. It is apparently a bit more expensive than using machines but I think it’s worth it. There’s something meaningful and beneficial for a civic culture when everyone votes with a tangible physical act in largely the same way it has been done for 150 years. It’s an unusual but radically inclusive act. Voting by mail is possible by request, but less common, and uses a double envelope system to achieve a similar outcome. http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&document=index&lang=e http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&do...
- jacques_chester 9y ago
  Australia also has these features in its electoral systems. The measures are simple, highly visible and effective.

specialist 9y ago

Canada's elections are quite amenable to manual tabulation. Color me envious. Years ago, a group of us activists in the USA tried to understand manual counting better. We timed ourselves on mock elections using the "sort and stack" system. It goes about as fast as you'd expect (and reminded me of being a junior bookkeeper reconciling accounts at the end of period, ahhh nostalgia). We also self-funded some official manual recounts, just to get better metrics. It wasn't pretty. USA's elections are generally over complicated, with many races/issues per ballot. To enable efficient manual counting, we'd have to redesign our ballots so that they could be physically separately into federal, state, local sub-ballots, for separate processing. Replacing FPTP with Approval Voting and Proportional Representation would also help.

krrrh 9y ago
What if it just took 3 days to count the votes? People looking over each ballot and calling out the results, seconding them, and having someone keep a tally on a big chalkboard. They could even close the markets during the counting process to prevent the rampant speculation from causing wide swings. Does it need to be that efficient? If America can wait 2 months to swear in the new president, surely it can wait 3 days for the results to be counted. It's not like the world stopped spinning in 2000 when it took several weeks to finish the Florida count.
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  Florida is a pretty bad example because the Supreme Court ruling was that (1) Bush had to be declared the winner because if the original declared winner was overturned people would lose their faith in the voting system, and (2) resolving the case was taking too long so Florida had to stop trying.
  - krrrh 9y ago
    All true, but the fact that “hanging chad” became part of the national lexicon for a while really speaks to a poorly design ballot.