4 ms·

Remember: county jail holds people waiting to go to trial. Many of these people have not been convicted. Often these inmates are coerced by their appointed att

Remember: county jail holds people waiting to go to trial. Many of these people have not been convicted. Often these inmates are coerced by their appointed attorney (who is swamped) to waive their right for a speedy trial. Torturing prisoners in the US is bad, but torturing the untried is truly evil.

Freak_NL 9y ago
Ethical nit-pick: In degrees of 'evilness' it shouldn't matter whether or not the person being tortured is convicted or not — unless you subscribe to the rather unenlightened notion that condemned criminals by default deserve worse than what the judge handed down as a sentence in a fair trial.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  Is torturing someone who has committed a hundred murders and someone who has committed no murders ethically equal? I can see both sides of the argument making good points.
  - ljm 9y ago
    If you consider torture to be ethically bad (which I suspect most would), then it would be strange to make an exception to it and say it's bad except someone did something to deserve it, no? From the position of the person doing the torture, I would find it hard to say that someone else's crime permits me to be less ethical myself, as if committing a hundred murders needs to be balanced out by adding to the crime.
    - slededit 9y ago
      I consider locking other humans up to be ethically bad - but I can't think of anything better than prisons. Something being ethically bad is insufficient to rule it out. The degree of the ethical failure matters, as does the purpose of the action. This will inevitably be read to imply I'm advocating Torture which I am not. I'm merely pointing out that binary ethical/unethical is insufficient.
chrisseaton 9y ago
In the UK prisoners on remand (not sure if you use that term but it means waiting for a court date) get rights that convicted prisoners don't, such as being able to wear their own clothes, to vote, to continue to run a business and support to help you keep your job, to access private healthcare and so on.
- decebalus1 9y ago
  yeah, but they're the Queen's subjects, they're not 'free free' like one would be in the USA /s
actionscripted 9y ago
> ...inmates are coerced by their appointed attorney (who is swamped) to waive their right for a speedy trial. Oftentimes in the US it is less about a busy defense attourney and more about the prosecution offering a plea deal to skip trial. I can't say with any certainty why this is done but I believe it's due to overcrowding in courts and jails. Many attourneys will suggest the defendant accept the plea deal because it's a sure thing. It's a lighter sentence than if the defendant went to court and when a case goes to court -- especially a jury trial -- it is impossible to say how it will turn out and it could end up far worse for the defendant when compared to the plea deal.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  It's also about the DA padding her own stats. Charge the defendant with every felony that even closely fits the alleged crime, then allow them to plea down to a misdemeanor. DA gets a conviction, court docket is smaller, and the alleged criminal "gets off easy".
- gnode 9y ago
  It's also possible for a plea to involve conditions beyond punishment, such as a requirement to testify against another defendant.

Freak_NL 9y ago

Ethical nit-pick: In degrees of 'evilness' it shouldn't matter whether or not the person being tortured is convicted or not — unless you subscribe to the rather unenlightened notion that condemned criminals by default deserve worse than what the judge handed down as a sentence in a fair trial.

StavrosK 9y ago
Is torturing someone who has committed a hundred murders and someone who has committed no murders ethically equal? I can see both sides of the argument making good points.
- ljm 9y ago
  If you consider torture to be ethically bad (which I suspect most would), then it would be strange to make an exception to it and say it's bad except someone did something to deserve it, no? From the position of the person doing the torture, I would find it hard to say that someone else's crime permits me to be less ethical myself, as if committing a hundred murders needs to be balanced out by adding to the crime.
  - slededit 9y ago
    I consider locking other humans up to be ethically bad - but I can't think of anything better than prisons. Something being ethically bad is insufficient to rule it out. The degree of the ethical failure matters, as does the purpose of the action. This will inevitably be read to imply I'm advocating Torture which I am not. I'm merely pointing out that binary ethical/unethical is insufficient.

chrisseaton 9y ago

In the UK prisoners on remand (not sure if you use that term but it means waiting for a court date) get rights that convicted prisoners don't, such as being able to wear their own clothes, to vote, to continue to run a business and support to help you keep your job, to access private healthcare and so on.

decebalus1 9y ago
yeah, but they're the Queen's subjects, they're not 'free free' like one would be in the USA /s

actionscripted 9y ago

> ...inmates are coerced by their appointed attorney (who is swamped) to waive their right for a speedy trial. Oftentimes in the US it is less about a busy defense attourney and more about the prosecution offering a plea deal to skip trial. I can't say with any certainty why this is done but I believe it's due to overcrowding in courts and jails. Many attourneys will suggest the defendant accept the plea deal because it's a sure thing. It's a lighter sentence than if the defendant went to court and when a case goes to court -- especially a jury trial -- it is impossible to say how it will turn out and it could end up far worse for the defendant when compared to the plea deal.

alistairSH 9y ago
It's also about the DA padding her own stats. Charge the defendant with every felony that even closely fits the alleged crime, then allow them to plea down to a misdemeanor. DA gets a conviction, court docket is smaller, and the alleged criminal "gets off easy".
gnode 9y ago
It's also possible for a plea to involve conditions beyond punishment, such as a requirement to testify against another defendant.