4 ms·

Migrating elections to a technology one needs mathematics/CS PhD to understand just a part of from technology that can be understood by a middle schooler doesn'

by sannee 9y ago

Migrating elections to a technology one needs mathematics/CS PhD to understand just a part of from technology that can be understood by a middle schooler doesn't seem all that great. The article talks about "fully-transparent voting solution for this future", yet I somehow don't see any transparency when it all relies on magic only a negligible part of the population understands.

icelancer 9y ago
Plenty of idiots use an ATM and work with the financial system and all of its quirks without much issue, why would a blockchain-based system be any different?
- sannee 9y ago
  It's not about using the system as an "user". It's about the fact that it bases democracy on principles which are way beyond the mathematical capabilities of 99%+ of the electorate! I mean, if my government decides to use some crypto/blockhain magic, there is no way I can figure out if using hash algorithm H in a method X is valid choice or if it is a backdoor/negligence. This is an issue which simply does not happen with paper ballots (backdooring these is of course possible, but really expensive especially at scale). The attack surface is easy to reason out, unlike with cryptography. Maybe it does not matter though (and maybe I am afraid of mathematicians secretly taking over the world, ha!)
  - dwighttk 9y ago
    I think it matters
- specialist 9y ago
  Accounting uses double entry (credits & debits), election administration does not. Compulsory voting could make election administration look more like accounting. Blockchains explicitly remove privacy, whereas voting should be the Australian Ballot, aka private voting & public counting.
- xorcist 9y ago
  You only care that the ATM is fair to you. An election system needs to be fair to everyone else.
kkleindev 9y ago
"Migrating elections to a technology one needs mathematics/CS PhD to understand just a part of from technology that can be understood by a middle schooler doesn't seem all that great." I for one am quite happy that a migration from horse carriages, understandable by a middle schooler, to cars and trains has happened. I don't have a position on using the blockchain for elections, I'm just not convinced by your point.
- tialaramex 9y ago
  This probably means you're confused about what voting is for. Voting does not produce better results. What it does is give the voters confidence in the decision process. This confidence is damaged by difficult to understand technology. The boring paper ballot with an X on it is understandable to almost every citizen and so the legitimacy of results from that process is clearer. Democracy is a good idea not because it results in good government, you have only to look around and see the hopeless incompetents elected around the world, but because it averts violent regime change. Why march on the capital with pitchforks when we can just vote for somebody else?
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    That's right. What matters is that the process looks fair to the average uninformed person, not that it is actually fair.
dmix 9y ago
> Migrating elections to a technology one needs mathematics/CS PhD to understand "Black box" abstraction is utilized everywhere in the world and has been a core part of many functional systems. That's a silly basis to dismiss any technology.
krrrh 9y ago
This is the part of the conversation when a Canadian points out that federal elections are conducted on straightforward paper ballots where you mark an X next to the person’s name. They are hand-counted with reps from all of the parties and election officials present, and it can take hours before the results are ready. No machines and no reason to screw up a process that every one understands. There are a lot of things in our lives that would benefit from greater efficiency, this isn’t one of them. As for the blockchain, do computer books for kids not start with a lesson on GIGO anymore? You still need to trust the information that gets written to the chain is valid.
- flush 9y ago
  How do they prevent ballot-stuffing? (Not trying to invalidate what you're saying, I'm genuinely curious)
  - krrrh 9y ago
    Voter lists (allowing for on-site registration with ID or proof of address), tear-away serial numbers, and checks throughout the process, including the election official initialing the back of the ballot they hand you and confirming their initials are authentic when you come back with it filled out. In reality you usually don’t go more than a dozen feet from them to mark it anyway. There’s a good rundown here: http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm It helps that it is very rare to have a referendum question so you are usually just voting for your local member of parliament. The ballots are very clear: http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/2008_ballot_Canada.jpg http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/... It doesn’t take that long to count by hand, and it’s rare that people don’t accept a result or engage in conspiracy theories and court battles for months after an election. Recounts happen if the results are very close but there is usually very little movement in totals. It is apparently a bit more expensive than using machines but I think it’s worth it. There’s something meaningful and beneficial for a civic culture when everyone votes with a tangible physical act in largely the same way it has been done for 150 years. It’s an unusual but radically inclusive act. Voting by mail is possible by request, but less common, and uses a double envelope system to achieve a similar outcome. http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&document=index&lang=e http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&do...

by sannee 9y ago

icelancer 9y ago

Plenty of idiots use an ATM and work with the financial system and all of its quirks without much issue, why would a blockchain-based system be any different?

sannee 9y ago
It's not about using the system as an "user". It's about the fact that it bases democracy on principles which are way beyond the mathematical capabilities of 99%+ of the electorate! I mean, if my government decides to use some crypto/blockhain magic, there is no way I can figure out if using hash algorithm H in a method X is valid choice or if it is a backdoor/negligence. This is an issue which simply does not happen with paper ballots (backdooring these is of course possible, but really expensive especially at scale). The attack surface is easy to reason out, unlike with cryptography. Maybe it does not matter though (and maybe I am afraid of mathematicians secretly taking over the world, ha!)
- dwighttk 9y ago
  I think it matters
specialist 9y ago
Accounting uses double entry (credits & debits), election administration does not. Compulsory voting could make election administration look more like accounting. Blockchains explicitly remove privacy, whereas voting should be the Australian Ballot, aka private voting & public counting.
xorcist 9y ago
You only care that the ATM is fair to you. An election system needs to be fair to everyone else.

kkleindev 9y ago

"Migrating elections to a technology one needs mathematics/CS PhD to understand just a part of from technology that can be understood by a middle schooler doesn't seem all that great." I for one am quite happy that a migration from horse carriages, understandable by a middle schooler, to cars and trains has happened. I don't have a position on using the blockchain for elections, I'm just not convinced by your point.

tialaramex 9y ago
This probably means you're confused about what voting is for. Voting does not produce better results. What it does is give the voters confidence in the decision process. This confidence is damaged by difficult to understand technology. The boring paper ballot with an X on it is understandable to almost every citizen and so the legitimacy of results from that process is clearer. Democracy is a good idea not because it results in good government, you have only to look around and see the hopeless incompetents elected around the world, but because it averts violent regime change. Why march on the capital with pitchforks when we can just vote for somebody else?
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  That's right. What matters is that the process looks fair to the average uninformed person, not that it is actually fair.

dmix 9y ago

> Migrating elections to a technology one needs mathematics/CS PhD to understand "Black box" abstraction is utilized everywhere in the world and has been a core part of many functional systems. That's a silly basis to dismiss any technology.

krrrh 9y ago

This is the part of the conversation when a Canadian points out that federal elections are conducted on straightforward paper ballots where you mark an X next to the person’s name. They are hand-counted with reps from all of the parties and election officials present, and it can take hours before the results are ready. No machines and no reason to screw up a process that every one understands. There are a lot of things in our lives that would benefit from greater efficiency, this isn’t one of them. As for the blockchain, do computer books for kids not start with a lesson on GIGO anymore? You still need to trust the information that gets written to the chain is valid.

flush 9y ago
How do they prevent ballot-stuffing? (Not trying to invalidate what you're saying, I'm genuinely curious)
- krrrh 9y ago
  Voter lists (allowing for on-site registration with ID or proof of address), tear-away serial numbers, and checks throughout the process, including the election official initialing the back of the ballot they hand you and confirming their initials are authentic when you come back with it filled out. In reality you usually don’t go more than a dozen feet from them to mark it anyway. There’s a good rundown here: http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm http://www.wheresthepaper.org/CountPaperBallots.htm It helps that it is very rare to have a referendum question so you are usually just voting for your local member of parliament. The ballots are very clear: http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/2008_ballot_Canada.jpg http://www.opinionatedbastard.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/... It doesn’t take that long to count by hand, and it’s rare that people don’t accept a result or engage in conspiracy theories and court battles for months after an election. Recounts happen if the results are very close but there is usually very little movement in totals. It is apparently a bit more expensive than using machines but I think it’s worth it. There’s something meaningful and beneficial for a civic culture when everyone votes with a tangible physical act in largely the same way it has been done for 150 years. It’s an unusual but radically inclusive act. Voting by mail is possible by request, but less common, and uses a double envelope system to achieve a similar outcome. http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&document=index&lang=e http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=vote&do...