7 ms·

In a first, U.S. blames Russia for cyber attacks on energy grid

103 points by onewhonknocks 9y ago

mc32 9y ago
That Russia is acting like a spoiled country is not much in doubt. What I hope doesn't happen is a needless tit-for-tat escalation. I think much of this goes back to the ill-conceived and ill fated "Reset" with Clinton (at the behest of Obama). For whatever reason Putin and Obama didn't get along. I'm hopeful that cold-war warriors don't dominate the policies to come. If we (they and us) take that tack, we're in for a bad stretch. I'm hoping the current administration is capable of bucking the Russophobia the Dems are so attached to and committed to, mostly for internal political reasons. Let's get real, deal with Russia as the adversary it is, but in a level-headed manner. Let's face it, they do not care about sanctions. One Bit. They will survive with or without the rest of the world but we get to deal with their blow back. Obama granted N Korea's Kim more respect than he did Putin. I think that was a grave mistake on his part and we're now paying for this slight with these passive-aggressive moves.
- ComradeTaco 9y ago
  Russian-American relations have worsened not because of russophobia, but rather because of several high profile and geopolitically relevant events. The first of these was the invasion of Crimea and the funneling of arms to Ukrainian Separatists engaging in a civil war. These actions are a direct violation of the Budapest Memorandum signed by Russia and the US. Essentially, Ukraine agreed to destroy the nuclear weapons leftover from the USSR in exchange for total respect in regards to territorial integrity.[1] Furthermore, a Russian BUK system, staffed by these separatists downed the civilian airliner Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing 298 innocent people.[2]. Furthermore, Russian hackers hacked the emails of both major political parties, and has, literally, a 3 story office complex staffed with internet trolls intent on misleading the American public via social media for the last several years[4]. Finally, you have the most recent incident where Russia attempted to murder not only a former spy in the U.K., but also his daughter, and about twenty other bar patrons, neighbors and first responders. The poisoned used was a nerve gas developed in Russia and exclusively available in Russia.[5] Clearly, these are meaningful events in the context of American-Russia relations as well as NATO-Russia relations, you can't just handwave them away by saying it's one parties political problem. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit... [3]https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politics/comey-republicans-hacked-russia/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politics/comey-republicans-ha... [4]https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-op https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/... [5]https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/europe/theresa-may-reprisals-for-russian-spy-poisoning-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/europe/theresa-may-reprisals-...
  - mc32 9y ago
    People need to understand Russia needs a deep water port in the black sea. There is no way around that. That's what Crimea is about. They couldn't give two shits about it otherwise. But Obama wanted to thumb his nose at Russia and ignored that to Russia (as well as the USSR) a deep water port on the black sea is a must. The separatists are often labeled as Russian military in the MSM, but I gather they were essentially militias who overran Ukraine depots and then later got some Russian leadership help. The MSMs though, present them as Russian regulars. The Russian troll factory for most of its existence was to troll Ukrainians not The West. It'd be like expecting us (the US) to give up San Diego as a strategic harbor and let it silt up. It is not gonna happen.
    - akhilcacharya 9y ago
      >The separatists are often labeled as Russian military in the MSM That would be strange, especially if they were able to get weapons issued only to Russian military at Ukrainian depots. >It'd be like expecting us (the US) to give up San Diego as a strategic harbor and let it silt up. It is not gonna happen. Are you claiming San Diego is a part of another country? Because if it were a part of Mexico and it was annexed tomorrow I'd have very similar concerns.
      - mc32 9y ago
        I'm saying that the ports have equivalent strategic importance. Who is providing the evidence of the weapons, Ukraine?
        Const-me 9y ago
        Here’s loads of evidence of artillery attacks across Russian-Ukrainian border (from Russian side) in 2014: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/02/17/origin-of-artillery-attacks/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/02/17/ori... Here’s direct evidence of one episode of invasion: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-milita...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
Anyone interested in seeing the, "proof" that Russia was responsible can see it here: https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A As with virtually every other accusation of "Russian hacking", there is actually nothing presented suggesting that it was Russians that performed these hacks, let alone conclusively proving that. The line of "reasoning" used to accuse Russia of being responsible is, yet again, the same bit of tired tripe. It boils down to, "this attack uses methods that we suspect Russians have used in the past, and we assert that Russians would have liked to do this hack, therefore we have proof that it was Russians". >Malicious email campaigns dating back to late 2015 were used to gain entry into organizations in the United States, Turkey and Switzerland, and likely other countries, Symantec said at the time, though it did not name Russia as the culprit. In other words, these were generic fishing attacks that could have been performed by anyone. Since anyone and everyone uses these fishing attacks, we had no idea who it was in 2015. However, now that everyone is blaming everything on Russia, we can safely do so without even casual scrutiny of our claims.
- arthurcolle 9y ago
  you're repeating yourself
- exabrial 9y ago
  While HN has a liberal bias, it is worth reading and understanding the opposite side's motivation for their opinion. Instead of voting him down, it would be more academic to understand and engage in civil discussions.
  - ComradeTaco 9y ago
    It's infinitely harder to have a reasonable discussion when there's a troll factory pumping out bad faith arguments in great volume. [1]https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-ope https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/...
    - 9y ago
mike_hearn 9y ago
This is not a first. The USA made a nearly identical claim in this retracted story in 2016: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-hackers-penetrated-us-electricity-grid-through-a-utility-in-vermont/2016/12/30/8fc90cc4-ceec-11e6-b8a2-8c2a61b0436f_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russi... A code associated with the Russian hacking operation dubbed Grizzly Steppe by the Obama administration has been detected within the system of a Vermont utility, according to U.S. officials. ... but ... Editor’s Note: An earlier version of this story incorrectly said that Russian hackers had penetrated the U.S. electric grid. Authorities say there is no indication of that so far. The computer at Burlington Electric that was hacked was not attached to the grid. Generally speaking, anonymously sourced stories in western news outlets about Russian hacking have a very high propensity to collapse or get quietly retracted days later. The DHS is particularly notorious for this: they also claimed Russia hacked various election related systems in multiple states, but the states themselves investigated and said the DHS was wrong. I cite some more examples in this blog post: https://blog.plan99.net/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B0-6e24757a67ba https://blog.plan99.net/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B0... Glenn Greenwald also wrote extensively about this problem. So now we have an "unprecedented" story sourced to anonymous officials in the DHS, making the entirely false claim that this is the first time US officials have accused Russia of hacking the electrical grid. The cited evidence is a Symantec report that didn't name anyone in particular. Is it possible Russia is doing this? Of course. I would be, if I were Putin. But I'd also be doing it if I were the leader of Iran or North Korea or China. Perhaps all of them are doing it. Regardless of the truth, this sort of story should have no credibility with anyone by now. There have been far too many false stories about Russian hacking published for them to carry weight.
- joering2 9y ago
  but who is doing all this "jumping on a tree's branch" ?? We are worse now than in Cold War times! These unspecified retracted stories' authors are traitors! I won't blame Putin for WW3, I will blame them!
- comex 9y ago
  No, this is a first. It's the first time the US has publicly blamed Russia through official channels, as opposed to leaks to the press. The original alert was published by US-CERT: https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A and has more interesting technical details. It's true that both this and previously reports technically involved "anonymous officials in the DHS", in the sense that alert doesn't name any specific officials, but the phrase "anonymous officials" is usually associated with leaks, not official announcements...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
exabrial 9y ago
I feel like we're playing a dangerous game, escalating towards war. We've interfered with each other's elections dating back to the cold war. I'm not saying it's moral, but we should maybe reexamine our own actions and what we're willing to sacrifice before asking for things [extraditions] for things we're also guilty of.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- onetimemanytime 9y ago
  Russia cannot afford a war. It simply doesn't have the money or military to go against USA and Europe. And, no, China is not going to help them out
  - mc32 9y ago
    Europe is not in good shape to fight a war by themselves against Russia. So Russia could get away with lots of things like they did in Eastern Ukraine or meddle some more in the middle east. It does not hurt them, but it will hurt the EU as well as the US.
  - chokolad 9y ago
    Russia can't afford starting conventional war against NATO, but if such a war will somehow flare up, Russia can afford to finish the nuclear war that will follow.
    - kurthr 9y ago
      I think you are saying they can afford Mutually Assured Destruction? I hope they're not that crazy. I suppose it's monetarily/mechanically true, but it's almost like saying you can afford a new car when your life insurance pays out.
      - Waterluvian 9y ago
        The problem with logicing away MAD is that these hierarchies of power are built where it takes just one madman, not bound by logic, to decide to destroy everything. Then you pray for some breakdown in command down the chain. Dr. Strangelove and all that.
leke 9y ago
I've just finished watching the Stuxnet documentary. State funded attacks on critical infrastructure are going to be a world-wide norm. No matter how good your security, you will be vulnerable eventually. We'll have to go back to analogue style systems to be protected.
aninteger 9y ago
If I leave my door unlocked can I really blame <bad person> for opening my door and robbing me? Why dont I invest in door locks? The US should really look into a more security focused infrastructure. This year the bad guy is Russia, but last year it was China and next year maybe it will be Iranian hackers. I understand that security is constant game of cat and mouse but when I see and hear of companies running Wimdows XP in 2018... it's like we're not even trying. Might as well leave the doors unlocked.
- duck 9y ago
  > If I leave my door unlocked can I really blame <bad person> for opening my door and robbing me? Yes, you can and should.
  - akhilcacharya 9y ago
    I'm in full agreement, and I'm shocked that this argument is used so much. Even when faced with a vulnerability, it is absolutely the thief's responsibility if they take advantage of the vulnerability for their own gain.
    - jstarfish 9y ago
      The adversary in question isn't accountable to our laws. There is no "thief's responsibility." There's just "you got pwned, you have no recourse, now it's your problem." For all intents and purposes, that thief may as well be a crocodile who slips in during the night and eats your children. We can put it on trial or negotiate with it about as effectively. Was Equifax blameless in the events leading up to their breach? They could have prevented it, but they didn't. Or do we only expect responsibility from criminals and corporations?
      - yborg 9y ago
        So your argument is that Russia or any other nation state that behaves this way is an amoral entity like a crocodile? This is absurd, nations consist of human beings that can understand concepts of right or wrong and behave appropriately. If your argument is correct, and the adversary is amoral and driven only by the opportunity to take advantage of weakness, the other nations at risk by this entity should logically band together and destroy it.
TomMckenny 9y ago
Rather than discussion about technical aspects, we get a spew of how innocent Russia is and how America deserves it. If the west now can't even defend its technical discussion forums from totalitarian disruption, heaven help it.
- jwtadvice 9y ago
  It's a knee-jerk reaction to totalitarian domestic propaganda. Has a tendency to breed confused, alarmist, emotional and untechnical conversation. Here's the truth: Russia isn't evil. Neither is the United States. But they are enemies. The people are getting caught in a propaganda war, which has shifted conversation from the venue of technical to ideological. (Propaganda, in practice, breeds ideological self-affirming thinking.) The breakdown of conversation isn't the fault of the "traitors who support the evil Russians" or the fault of the "domestic saboteurs who support the US mass propaganda apparatus" but the fact that the two countries can't get their shit straight and work toward a post-Cold War without throwing acid at each other. (I'm rewriting the last sentence of this over and over because I realize its going to attract ever-yet more comments of the form "but Russia's evil and they started it and you can't really compare the US and Russia - can you?". Screw it.)
  - fbarred 9y ago
    I'm surprised how often people are starting to carelessly refer to Russia as "enemy". I think "adversary" is a more accurate term, on the same level as China. The governments of both sides say they want cooperation but are are annoyed at each other's behavior and actions. However I don't think the people of either country treat the other as "enemy", like they did during the cold war. Back then each side was afraid that the other one may attack them preemptively out of ideological reasons.
    - TomMckenny 9y ago
      Russia by itself is merely a western rival which could normally be worked with by sane western governments. But Putin is a hostile who's popularity, having ruined the economy, depends on endless conflict and so will never be appeased. Even the extremely pro Putin White House is repeatedly embarrassed by the one sided-ness of the relationship. But that's a side issue here. If one wanted to save a free discussion site from de-facto censorship and vandalism by totalitarian shills, one would need to apply the ban-hammer with ruthless zeal. Possibly viewing threads like this one as a honeypot to locate them. One would not, for example, cater to that censorship by penalizing news of cyber attacks off the front page. Which, among other things, eliminates discussion of mitigation strategies.

103 points by onewhonknocks 9y ago

mc32 9y ago

That Russia is acting like a spoiled country is not much in doubt. What I hope doesn't happen is a needless tit-for-tat escalation. I think much of this goes back to the ill-conceived and ill fated "Reset" with Clinton (at the behest of Obama). For whatever reason Putin and Obama didn't get along. I'm hopeful that cold-war warriors don't dominate the policies to come. If we (they and us) take that tack, we're in for a bad stretch. I'm hoping the current administration is capable of bucking the Russophobia the Dems are so attached to and committed to, mostly for internal political reasons. Let's get real, deal with Russia as the adversary it is, but in a level-headed manner. Let's face it, they do not care about sanctions. One Bit. They will survive with or without the rest of the world but we get to deal with their blow back. Obama granted N Korea's Kim more respect than he did Putin. I think that was a grave mistake on his part and we're now paying for this slight with these passive-aggressive moves.

ComradeTaco 9y ago
Russian-American relations have worsened not because of russophobia, but rather because of several high profile and geopolitically relevant events. The first of these was the invasion of Crimea and the funneling of arms to Ukrainian Separatists engaging in a civil war. These actions are a direct violation of the Budapest Memorandum signed by Russia and the US. Essentially, Ukraine agreed to destroy the nuclear weapons leftover from the USSR in exchange for total respect in regards to territorial integrity.[1] Furthermore, a Russian BUK system, staffed by these separatists downed the civilian airliner Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing 298 innocent people.[2]. Furthermore, Russian hackers hacked the emails of both major political parties, and has, literally, a 3 story office complex staffed with internet trolls intent on misleading the American public via social media for the last several years[4]. Finally, you have the most recent incident where Russia attempted to murder not only a former spy in the U.K., but also his daughter, and about twenty other bar patrons, neighbors and first responders. The poisoned used was a nerve gas developed in Russia and exclusively available in Russia.[5] Clearly, these are meaningful events in the context of American-Russia relations as well as NATO-Russia relations, you can't just handwave them away by saying it's one parties political problem. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit... [3]https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politics/comey-republicans-hacked-russia/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politics/comey-republicans-ha... [4]https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-op https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/... [5]https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/europe/theresa-may-reprisals-for-russian-spy-poisoning-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/europe/theresa-may-reprisals-...
- mc32 9y ago
  People need to understand Russia needs a deep water port in the black sea. There is no way around that. That's what Crimea is about. They couldn't give two shits about it otherwise. But Obama wanted to thumb his nose at Russia and ignored that to Russia (as well as the USSR) a deep water port on the black sea is a must. The separatists are often labeled as Russian military in the MSM, but I gather they were essentially militias who overran Ukraine depots and then later got some Russian leadership help. The MSMs though, present them as Russian regulars. The Russian troll factory for most of its existence was to troll Ukrainians not The West. It'd be like expecting us (the US) to give up San Diego as a strategic harbor and let it silt up. It is not gonna happen.
  - akhilcacharya 9y ago
    >The separatists are often labeled as Russian military in the MSM That would be strange, especially if they were able to get weapons issued only to Russian military at Ukrainian depots. >It'd be like expecting us (the US) to give up San Diego as a strategic harbor and let it silt up. It is not gonna happen. Are you claiming San Diego is a part of another country? Because if it were a part of Mexico and it was annexed tomorrow I'd have very similar concerns.
    - mc32 9y ago
      I'm saying that the ports have equivalent strategic importance. Who is providing the evidence of the weapons, Ukraine?
      - Const-me 9y ago
        Here’s loads of evidence of artillery attacks across Russian-Ukrainian border (from Russian side) in 2014: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/02/17/origin-of-artillery-attacks/ https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/02/17/ori... Here’s direct evidence of one episode of invasion: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-milita...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

StanislavPetrov 9y ago

Anyone interested in seeing the, "proof" that Russia was responsible can see it here: https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A As with virtually every other accusation of "Russian hacking", there is actually nothing presented suggesting that it was Russians that performed these hacks, let alone conclusively proving that. The line of "reasoning" used to accuse Russia of being responsible is, yet again, the same bit of tired tripe. It boils down to, "this attack uses methods that we suspect Russians have used in the past, and we assert that Russians would have liked to do this hack, therefore we have proof that it was Russians". >Malicious email campaigns dating back to late 2015 were used to gain entry into organizations in the United States, Turkey and Switzerland, and likely other countries, Symantec said at the time, though it did not name Russia as the culprit. In other words, these were generic fishing attacks that could have been performed by anyone. Since anyone and everyone uses these fishing attacks, we had no idea who it was in 2015. However, now that everyone is blaming everything on Russia, we can safely do so without even casual scrutiny of our claims.

arthurcolle 9y ago
you're repeating yourself
exabrial 9y ago
While HN has a liberal bias, it is worth reading and understanding the opposite side's motivation for their opinion. Instead of voting him down, it would be more academic to understand and engage in civil discussions.
- ComradeTaco 9y ago
  It's infinitely harder to have a reasonable discussion when there's a troll factory pumping out bad faith arguments in great volume. [1]https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-ope https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/...
  - 9y ago

mike_hearn 9y ago

This is not a first. The USA made a nearly identical claim in this retracted story in 2016: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-hackers-penetrated-us-electricity-grid-through-a-utility-in-vermont/2016/12/30/8fc90cc4-ceec-11e6-b8a2-8c2a61b0436f_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russi... A code associated with the Russian hacking operation dubbed Grizzly Steppe by the Obama administration has been detected within the system of a Vermont utility, according to U.S. officials. ... but ... Editor’s Note: An earlier version of this story incorrectly said that Russian hackers had penetrated the U.S. electric grid. Authorities say there is no indication of that so far. The computer at Burlington Electric that was hacked was not attached to the grid. Generally speaking, anonymously sourced stories in western news outlets about Russian hacking have a very high propensity to collapse or get quietly retracted days later. The DHS is particularly notorious for this: they also claimed Russia hacked various election related systems in multiple states, but the states themselves investigated and said the DHS was wrong. I cite some more examples in this blog post: https://blog.plan99.net/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B0-6e24757a67ba https://blog.plan99.net/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B4%D0%B0... Glenn Greenwald also wrote extensively about this problem. So now we have an "unprecedented" story sourced to anonymous officials in the DHS, making the entirely false claim that this is the first time US officials have accused Russia of hacking the electrical grid. The cited evidence is a Symantec report that didn't name anyone in particular. Is it possible Russia is doing this? Of course. I would be, if I were Putin. But I'd also be doing it if I were the leader of Iran or North Korea or China. Perhaps all of them are doing it. Regardless of the truth, this sort of story should have no credibility with anyone by now. There have been far too many false stories about Russian hacking published for them to carry weight.

joering2 9y ago
but who is doing all this "jumping on a tree's branch" ?? We are worse now than in Cold War times! These unspecified retracted stories' authors are traitors! I won't blame Putin for WW3, I will blame them!
comex 9y ago
No, this is a first. It's the first time the US has publicly blamed Russia through official channels, as opposed to leaks to the press. The original alert was published by US-CERT: https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A and has more interesting technical details. It's true that both this and previously reports technically involved "anonymous officials in the DHS", in the sense that alert doesn't name any specific officials, but the phrase "anonymous officials" is usually associated with leaks, not official announcements...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

exabrial 9y ago

I feel like we're playing a dangerous game, escalating towards war. We've interfered with each other's elections dating back to the cold war. I'm not saying it's moral, but we should maybe reexamine our own actions and what we're willing to sacrifice before asking for things [extraditions] for things we're also guilty of.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
onetimemanytime 9y ago
Russia cannot afford a war. It simply doesn't have the money or military to go against USA and Europe. And, no, China is not going to help them out
- mc32 9y ago
  Europe is not in good shape to fight a war by themselves against Russia. So Russia could get away with lots of things like they did in Eastern Ukraine or meddle some more in the middle east. It does not hurt them, but it will hurt the EU as well as the US.
- chokolad 9y ago
  Russia can't afford starting conventional war against NATO, but if such a war will somehow flare up, Russia can afford to finish the nuclear war that will follow.
  - kurthr 9y ago
    I think you are saying they can afford Mutually Assured Destruction? I hope they're not that crazy. I suppose it's monetarily/mechanically true, but it's almost like saying you can afford a new car when your life insurance pays out.
    - Waterluvian 9y ago
      The problem with logicing away MAD is that these hierarchies of power are built where it takes just one madman, not bound by logic, to decide to destroy everything. Then you pray for some breakdown in command down the chain. Dr. Strangelove and all that.

leke 9y ago

I've just finished watching the Stuxnet documentary. State funded attacks on critical infrastructure are going to be a world-wide norm. No matter how good your security, you will be vulnerable eventually. We'll have to go back to analogue style systems to be protected.

aninteger 9y ago

If I leave my door unlocked can I really blame <bad person> for opening my door and robbing me? Why dont I invest in door locks? The US should really look into a more security focused infrastructure. This year the bad guy is Russia, but last year it was China and next year maybe it will be Iranian hackers. I understand that security is constant game of cat and mouse but when I see and hear of companies running Wimdows XP in 2018... it's like we're not even trying. Might as well leave the doors unlocked.

duck 9y ago
> If I leave my door unlocked can I really blame <bad person> for opening my door and robbing me? Yes, you can and should.
- akhilcacharya 9y ago
  I'm in full agreement, and I'm shocked that this argument is used so much. Even when faced with a vulnerability, it is absolutely the thief's responsibility if they take advantage of the vulnerability for their own gain.
  - jstarfish 9y ago
    The adversary in question isn't accountable to our laws. There is no "thief's responsibility." There's just "you got pwned, you have no recourse, now it's your problem." For all intents and purposes, that thief may as well be a crocodile who slips in during the night and eats your children. We can put it on trial or negotiate with it about as effectively. Was Equifax blameless in the events leading up to their breach? They could have prevented it, but they didn't. Or do we only expect responsibility from criminals and corporations?
    - yborg 9y ago
      So your argument is that Russia or any other nation state that behaves this way is an amoral entity like a crocodile? This is absurd, nations consist of human beings that can understand concepts of right or wrong and behave appropriately. If your argument is correct, and the adversary is amoral and driven only by the opportunity to take advantage of weakness, the other nations at risk by this entity should logically band together and destroy it.

TomMckenny 9y ago

Rather than discussion about technical aspects, we get a spew of how innocent Russia is and how America deserves it. If the west now can't even defend its technical discussion forums from totalitarian disruption, heaven help it.

jwtadvice 9y ago
It's a knee-jerk reaction to totalitarian domestic propaganda. Has a tendency to breed confused, alarmist, emotional and untechnical conversation. Here's the truth: Russia isn't evil. Neither is the United States. But they are enemies. The people are getting caught in a propaganda war, which has shifted conversation from the venue of technical to ideological. (Propaganda, in practice, breeds ideological self-affirming thinking.) The breakdown of conversation isn't the fault of the "traitors who support the evil Russians" or the fault of the "domestic saboteurs who support the US mass propaganda apparatus" but the fact that the two countries can't get their shit straight and work toward a post-Cold War without throwing acid at each other. (I'm rewriting the last sentence of this over and over because I realize its going to attract ever-yet more comments of the form "but Russia's evil and they started it and you can't really compare the US and Russia - can you?". Screw it.)
- fbarred 9y ago
  I'm surprised how often people are starting to carelessly refer to Russia as "enemy". I think "adversary" is a more accurate term, on the same level as China. The governments of both sides say they want cooperation but are are annoyed at each other's behavior and actions. However I don't think the people of either country treat the other as "enemy", like they did during the cold war. Back then each side was afraid that the other one may attack them preemptively out of ideological reasons.
  - TomMckenny 9y ago
    Russia by itself is merely a western rival which could normally be worked with by sane western governments. But Putin is a hostile who's popularity, having ruined the economy, depends on endless conflict and so will never be appeased. Even the extremely pro Putin White House is repeatedly embarrassed by the one sided-ness of the relationship. But that's a side issue here. If one wanted to save a free discussion site from de-facto censorship and vandalism by totalitarian shills, one would need to apply the ban-hammer with ruthless zeal. Possibly viewing threads like this one as a honeypot to locate them. One would not, for example, cater to that censorship by penalizing news of cyber attacks off the front page. Which, among other things, eliminates discussion of mitigation strategies.