6 ms·

Cyberattacks Put Russian Fingers on the Switch at Power Plants, U.S. Says

41 points by eorge_g 9y ago

neo4sure 9y ago
The more I see it the more it looks like these guys are getting ready for a war. The 2016 election hacks seem to have been a decade-long plan. I hope it never comes to this. At a time when the country is divided, we may have trouble responding.
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  If you add that to the nerve gas assassination attempts in the UK this week it is time to look hard at how Russia has infiltrated the west.
  - hunta2097 9y ago
    It wasn't a gas, it was a powder (most likely). Russia's activities are probably more inward looking than outward. On March 18th Russian citizens will vote for their next president. Reaction (however warranted) by the Western powers will play well at home for Putin. "LOOK! The world hates us, let me protect you."
- jessaustin 9y ago
  I like it that you've left "these guys" ambiguous. That seems wise. Don't worry about a divided USA; the following makes it clear that we'll all be in complete agreement very soon: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/07/dems-m07.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/07/dems-m07.html
- Erlangolem 9y ago
  The history of the US is a history of deep divisions, until someone pokes it a little too hard, and suddenly a seemingly united response is generated. Often that response is more than a little extreme, and sometimes it gets all over the place, as Iraqis or Cambodians could tell you. The manufacturing capacity of the US, and its massive military spending are not to be fucked with lightly.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    Let's not kid ourselves; Russia would kick our asses in a shooting war. Actually they just did, in Syria. Our navy can't avoid running into cargo ships. Our air force can't buy a new plane. Our army is crippled when attacked with homemade explosives. Our intelligence agencies are employed mostly in spying on their own citizens. Any armed conflict directly with Russia would be kicked off in the same shameful shambolic fashion we've gotten underway in the last three nations we've invaded. That is to say, we'd make some stupid claims about hacking, everyone else at the UN would chuckle nervously while voting against us, and then we'd ineffectively bomb the wrong targets. Then the world would witness what a bunch of hungry tough bastards with the right equipment can do. It would not be pretty. Eventually Putin and the oligarchs would figure out a really big number we could probably pay if we stopped all entitlement spending for a few generations, and the pain would stop. Not even Canada would join us in such folly. Putin doesn't actually want a shooting war with USA; he just wants to keep his subjects thinking about Uncle Sam. Let's not fuck up our lives forever, just so a bunch of Washington assholes don't have to admit they've been very wrong for a very long time.
    - Erlangolem 9y ago
      Syria is a proxy war, and not a particularly relevant one. Even the wars the US loses tends to leave devastation in their wake. That, and you’re grossly overestimating the Russian military as a non-regional power, but it hardly matters, since the Russians certainly don’t make that error themselves. They’re smart enough to engage in proxy and regional conflicts, for better or worse. I hope that neither the US nor Russia would be stupid enough to go directly to war, but if they did it would be over in under and hour and we’d all be dead or dying. I’ll pass on that, thanks.
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        I agree that life is preferable to stupid wars, but in that case what were you trying to say by invoking the risible "sleeping giant" canard?
        9y ago
- markoman 9y ago
  Indeed. Let's not forget that some allies have evidence that Russian subs have been prowling around undersea cables. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/internet-net-neutrality-russia-gchq-telecommunications-undersea-cables-worldwide-web-a8181906.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/internet-net-...
- flukus 9y ago
  Throughout the cold war the Soviet Union had plans in place to take out much of the US energy grid, usually with well placed bombs and local agents. It's not an indication of war being imminent.
- joejerryronnie 9y ago
  Well, there's nothing like a good old-fashioned war to pull the country together. In all seriousness, I wonder if the absence of a clear foreign boogey man has resulted in Americans turning their angst and anger inward upon themselves. North Korea and Iran are too small to pose existential threats, terrorism is too ambiguous, and China hasn't crossed over into full enemy territory yet. The last real enemy we could all rally against was the USSR.
akeck 9y ago
See the pilot of the 2004 Battle Star Galactica.
vondur 9y ago
Well, if we'd stop meddling in Russia, maybe they'd do the same. I'm pretty sure we are trying to hack into their systems.
- cwkoss 9y ago
  Not many people know that Hillary Clinton 'meddled' in the 2011 Russian election... http://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/ http://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/ I feel like all American black ops are well intentioned, but often end up coming back to bite us.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    That's pretty thin. The fact that Putin said she did, doesn't mean she did. We're on much more solid ground saying that Americans got Yeltsin elected in 1996. Of course that result ended up being very good for Putin...
    - throwaway84742 9y ago
      It’s not all that much thinner than “$100k in FB ads spent _after the election_ altered the results of the election”.
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        Sure, but I don't believe that fairy tale either.
  - vondur 9y ago
    I'm referring to things like putting the American fleet in the Black Sea, getting involved in the Ukraine, getting involved in Syria...
    - skybrian 9y ago
      Ukraine and Syria: not Russia. And they are places where Russia is doing a lot of meddling, to say the least.
jessaustin 9y ago
I'm no expert, but rather than watching attacks for three years and then issuing some ineffectual reports and sanctions, wouldn't it have been better to just lock down the damn power plants? If you're smart enough to notice all this nefarious activity and correctly attribute it to somebody on the other side of the globe even though we know that other parties use all the same tools they use, why aren't you smart enough to just fix the vulnerabilities they're using? Curious!
- mkempe 9y ago
  The NSA is too busy spying on all Americans [edit: as well as collecting backdoors and keeping OS bugs secret] to fulfill its official duties (one of which is to protect U.S. communications networks and information systems). Edit: all of the above is factual, apart from the evaluation of them being negligent of their responsibilities solely due to being overly busy. And if you reasonably hold that the NSA are failing to perform their duties to help protect US infrastructure from cyber attacks for other reasons than being too busy spying on the American people -- would you like to suggest what such reasons are? Fact: the NSA records all electronic communications within the USA. Fact: the NSA collects backdoors, and has bribed US companies to create them. Fact: the NSA seeks and collects major OS bugs for exploitation. Fact: the NSA has systematically avoided revealing the above bugs to US manufacturers. If they had done so, as expected according to their charter, the bugs would have been fixed -- and thereby would have been protecting US infrastructure, government systems, companies, and last but not the least, the people.
  - diafygi 9y ago
    Yes, I agree with this argument. The intelligence community has consistently valued offensive capabilities over improving our tech defenses. Apparently they think that finding and hoarding exploits gives them an advantage over other state actors. Which really sad and depressing for the American tech sector. Not only do they have foreign state actors trying to hack into their infrastructure, they also know that they're own government won't help by disclosing the holes they hoard (or worse, joining the foreign attackers in exploiting the holes they have found). America has so much to lose and very little gain from exploits. It's so discouraging that the intelligence community is still valuing offense over defense.
abvdasker 9y ago
This combined with the election meddling and recent assassination in the UK feels like a clear reignition of the cold war.

41 points by eorge_g 9y ago

The more I see it the more it looks like these guys are getting ready for a war. The 2016 election hacks seem to have been a decade-long plan. I hope it never comes to this. At a time when the country is divided, we may have trouble responding.

jimnotgym 9y ago
If you add that to the nerve gas assassination attempts in the UK this week it is time to look hard at how Russia has infiltrated the west.
- hunta2097 9y ago
  It wasn't a gas, it was a powder (most likely). Russia's activities are probably more inward looking than outward. On March 18th Russian citizens will vote for their next president. Reaction (however warranted) by the Western powers will play well at home for Putin. "LOOK! The world hates us, let me protect you."
jessaustin 9y ago
I like it that you've left "these guys" ambiguous. That seems wise. Don't worry about a divided USA; the following makes it clear that we'll all be in complete agreement very soon: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/07/dems-m07.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/03/07/dems-m07.html
Erlangolem 9y ago
The history of the US is a history of deep divisions, until someone pokes it a little too hard, and suddenly a seemingly united response is generated. Often that response is more than a little extreme, and sometimes it gets all over the place, as Iraqis or Cambodians could tell you. The manufacturing capacity of the US, and its massive military spending are not to be fucked with lightly.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Let's not kid ourselves; Russia would kick our asses in a shooting war. Actually they just did, in Syria. Our navy can't avoid running into cargo ships. Our air force can't buy a new plane. Our army is crippled when attacked with homemade explosives. Our intelligence agencies are employed mostly in spying on their own citizens. Any armed conflict directly with Russia would be kicked off in the same shameful shambolic fashion we've gotten underway in the last three nations we've invaded. That is to say, we'd make some stupid claims about hacking, everyone else at the UN would chuckle nervously while voting against us, and then we'd ineffectively bomb the wrong targets. Then the world would witness what a bunch of hungry tough bastards with the right equipment can do. It would not be pretty. Eventually Putin and the oligarchs would figure out a really big number we could probably pay if we stopped all entitlement spending for a few generations, and the pain would stop. Not even Canada would join us in such folly. Putin doesn't actually want a shooting war with USA; he just wants to keep his subjects thinking about Uncle Sam. Let's not fuck up our lives forever, just so a bunch of Washington assholes don't have to admit they've been very wrong for a very long time.
  - Erlangolem 9y ago
    Syria is a proxy war, and not a particularly relevant one. Even the wars the US loses tends to leave devastation in their wake. That, and you’re grossly overestimating the Russian military as a non-regional power, but it hardly matters, since the Russians certainly don’t make that error themselves. They’re smart enough to engage in proxy and regional conflicts, for better or worse. I hope that neither the US nor Russia would be stupid enough to go directly to war, but if they did it would be over in under and hour and we’d all be dead or dying. I’ll pass on that, thanks.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      I agree that life is preferable to stupid wars, but in that case what were you trying to say by invoking the risible "sleeping giant" canard?
      - 9y ago
markoman 9y ago
Indeed. Let's not forget that some allies have evidence that Russian subs have been prowling around undersea cables. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/internet-net-neutrality-russia-gchq-telecommunications-undersea-cables-worldwide-web-a8181906.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/internet-net-...
flukus 9y ago
Throughout the cold war the Soviet Union had plans in place to take out much of the US energy grid, usually with well placed bombs and local agents. It's not an indication of war being imminent.
joejerryronnie 9y ago
Well, there's nothing like a good old-fashioned war to pull the country together. In all seriousness, I wonder if the absence of a clear foreign boogey man has resulted in Americans turning their angst and anger inward upon themselves. North Korea and Iran are too small to pose existential threats, terrorism is too ambiguous, and China hasn't crossed over into full enemy territory yet. The last real enemy we could all rally against was the USSR.

akeck 9y ago

See the pilot of the 2004 Battle Star Galactica.

vondur 9y ago

Well, if we'd stop meddling in Russia, maybe they'd do the same. I'm pretty sure we are trying to hack into their systems.

cwkoss 9y ago
Not many people know that Hillary Clinton 'meddled' in the 2011 Russian election... http://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/ http://time.com/4422723/putin-russia-hillary-clinton/ I feel like all American black ops are well intentioned, but often end up coming back to bite us.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  That's pretty thin. The fact that Putin said she did, doesn't mean she did. We're on much more solid ground saying that Americans got Yeltsin elected in 1996. Of course that result ended up being very good for Putin...
  - throwaway84742 9y ago
    It’s not all that much thinner than “$100k in FB ads spent _after the election_ altered the results of the election”.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      Sure, but I don't believe that fairy tale either.
- vondur 9y ago
  I'm referring to things like putting the American fleet in the Black Sea, getting involved in the Ukraine, getting involved in Syria...
  - skybrian 9y ago
    Ukraine and Syria: not Russia. And they are places where Russia is doing a lot of meddling, to say the least.

jessaustin 9y ago

I'm no expert, but rather than watching attacks for three years and then issuing some ineffectual reports and sanctions, wouldn't it have been better to just lock down the damn power plants? If you're smart enough to notice all this nefarious activity and correctly attribute it to somebody on the other side of the globe even though we know that other parties use all the same tools they use, why aren't you smart enough to just fix the vulnerabilities they're using? Curious!

mkempe 9y ago
The NSA is too busy spying on all Americans [edit: as well as collecting backdoors and keeping OS bugs secret] to fulfill its official duties (one of which is to protect U.S. communications networks and information systems). Edit: all of the above is factual, apart from the evaluation of them being negligent of their responsibilities solely due to being overly busy. And if you reasonably hold that the NSA are failing to perform their duties to help protect US infrastructure from cyber attacks for other reasons than being too busy spying on the American people -- would you like to suggest what such reasons are? Fact: the NSA records all electronic communications within the USA. Fact: the NSA collects backdoors, and has bribed US companies to create them. Fact: the NSA seeks and collects major OS bugs for exploitation. Fact: the NSA has systematically avoided revealing the above bugs to US manufacturers. If they had done so, as expected according to their charter, the bugs would have been fixed -- and thereby would have been protecting US infrastructure, government systems, companies, and last but not the least, the people.
- diafygi 9y ago
  Yes, I agree with this argument. The intelligence community has consistently valued offensive capabilities over improving our tech defenses. Apparently they think that finding and hoarding exploits gives them an advantage over other state actors. Which really sad and depressing for the American tech sector. Not only do they have foreign state actors trying to hack into their infrastructure, they also know that they're own government won't help by disclosing the holes they hoard (or worse, joining the foreign attackers in exploiting the holes they have found). America has so much to lose and very little gain from exploits. It's so discouraging that the intelligence community is still valuing offense over defense.

abvdasker 9y ago

This combined with the election meddling and recent assassination in the UK feels like a clear reignition of the cold war.