4 ms·

So like banks, but with a much darker recent history of taking the money and running, none of the stability, and none of the insurance. All traded for the dubio

So like banks, but with a much darker recent history of taking the money and running, none of the stability, and none of the insurance. All traded for the dubious benefit of broadcasting transactions to the blockchain, which seems like an empty sop to principle. I don’t care how many times “ultimate sovereignty” gets thrown around like it means anything important outside of a few narrow circles. As a currency Bitcoin just stinks, as an anonymous means of transferring money it stinks, but it’s a great way to shuffle money or rob someone. If people didn’t think they were going to use bitcoin to get rich quick, they just wouldn’t care. Well, except for scammers and money launderers.

gruez 9y ago
>but with a much darker recent history of taking the money and running there's nothing to steal. nobody is "holding" your money for you.
- Erlangolem 9y ago
  Whoever is running my node 24/7 is, if I want the convenience of money. If I’m using a paper wallet and a bank vault, I might as well buy platinum, for which demand is more than a phantom.
  - darawk 9y ago
    Yes, but there will be a liquid market in such nodes. Finding them will never be a problem.
    - foepys 9y ago
      > Yes, but there will be a liquid market in such nodes. How? You need to trust those nodes to provide not only a secure but also reliable service that will be online 24/7. A single outage, even if its only a minute long, can possibly lose you all your money in all channels. This means that centralization will happen almost immediately as high-availability is a very complex topic that is not achievable by amateurs. Especially when you are talking about more than 5 nines and actually mean 100%.
      - gruez 9y ago
        >A single outage, even if its only a minute long, can possibly lose you all your money in all channels do elaborate on how that's the case. edit: nvm, already discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16595042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16595042
      - darawk 9y ago
        > A single outage, even if its only a minute long, can possibly lose you all your money in all channels. The channels are open for multiple days. A minute outage wouldn't do the trick.
    - Erlangolem 9y ago
      Trusting them might be, and of course it presents a perfect attack vector for a state to take a long ropey piss all over your “ultimate sovereignty” while chuckling deeply. That assumes that for some bizarre reason Bitcoin doesn’t bottom out when no more greater fools are left to hold the bag. Bitcoin hasn’t become a household word because more than a fraction of a percent want “ultimate sovereignty” over their money. Grandpa and Grandma know what bitcoin is, John Oliver has pieces on it, and Google is banning ads because people want to get rich quick off the back of it. When that music stops, the whole thing is going back to its ground state, which is zero.
      - darawk 9y ago
        > Trusting them might be, and of course it presents a perfect attack vector for a state to take a long ropey piss all over your “ultimate sovereignty” while chuckling deeply And what attack vector is that? You're not really trusting these nodes. They can't steal your money. > When that music stops, the whole thing is going back to its ground state, which is zero. People have been predicting that since Bitcoin hit $10. Sure hasn't worked out well for them.
darawk 9y ago
> I don’t care how many times “ultimate sovereignty” gets thrown around like it means anything important outside of a few narrow circles. If you don't think it means something, then Bitcoin is not for you. But to basically all of the investors in gold, this is the property they care about.
- Erlangolem 9y ago
  Most people invest in precious metals becaus the rate of new precious metals entering the market is bound to be a trickle, demand is high, and it has value (and has for thousands of years). The fact that precious metals are fungible assets shouldn’t be lost on you either. A small minority of rubes do buy gold because they entertain apocalyptic fantasies in which they’d A. Survive and B. Be able to retain their money. Most people who diversify into gold are not entertaining the fantasy that their governments don’t still control their fates.
  - darawk 9y ago
    > A small minority of rubes do buy gold because they entertain apocalyptic fantasies in which they’d A. Survive and B. Be able to retain their money. You don't have to entertain the fantasy yourself to invest in it. You just have to trust that others do. That is what gold investment is, at a fundamental level.
    - Erlangolem 9y ago
      Gold isn’t in all of our electronics over a fantasy. Platinum isn’t a unique catalyst over a fantasy. Neither are fungible only in a fantasy. Investing in materials with industrial value, and thousands of years of aesthetic value, and perfect fungibility bears no real resemblance to ”Investing” in crypto. As a bonus, the SEC isn’t breathing down the neck of precious metals. Bitcoin has no real value, outside of a consensual fantasy.
      - darawk 9y ago
        > Gold isn’t in all of our electronics over a fantasy. How much influence do you think the sum of Gold's industrial uses exert over its value? I'll tell you: nearly zero. It's all speculation. > Bitcoin has no real value, outside of a consensual fantasy. All currencies have a value endogenous to their ecosystem. Bitcoin is no different. Bitcoin is used to pay transaction fees in the Bitcoin network. US dollars derive their value because the US government accepts them for taxes. These are equivalent properties, each contingent on the success of the thing that issues them. Owning bitcoin is a bet on future demand for bitcoin, which is a bet on future demand for bitcoin transactions, which necessarily cost BTC to perform. If you believe Bitcoin will come to mediate a significant fraction of global commerce, it's a good investment. If you don't, it's not. It's as simple as that.

gruez 9y ago

>but with a much darker recent history of taking the money and running there's nothing to steal. nobody is "holding" your money for you.

Erlangolem 9y ago
Whoever is running my node 24/7 is, if I want the convenience of money. If I’m using a paper wallet and a bank vault, I might as well buy platinum, for which demand is more than a phantom.
- darawk 9y ago
  Yes, but there will be a liquid market in such nodes. Finding them will never be a problem.
  - foepys 9y ago
    > Yes, but there will be a liquid market in such nodes. How? You need to trust those nodes to provide not only a secure but also reliable service that will be online 24/7. A single outage, even if its only a minute long, can possibly lose you all your money in all channels. This means that centralization will happen almost immediately as high-availability is a very complex topic that is not achievable by amateurs. Especially when you are talking about more than 5 nines and actually mean 100%.
    - gruez 9y ago
      >A single outage, even if its only a minute long, can possibly lose you all your money in all channels do elaborate on how that's the case. edit: nvm, already discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16595042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16595042
    - darawk 9y ago
      > A single outage, even if its only a minute long, can possibly lose you all your money in all channels. The channels are open for multiple days. A minute outage wouldn't do the trick.
  - Erlangolem 9y ago
    Trusting them might be, and of course it presents a perfect attack vector for a state to take a long ropey piss all over your “ultimate sovereignty” while chuckling deeply. That assumes that for some bizarre reason Bitcoin doesn’t bottom out when no more greater fools are left to hold the bag. Bitcoin hasn’t become a household word because more than a fraction of a percent want “ultimate sovereignty” over their money. Grandpa and Grandma know what bitcoin is, John Oliver has pieces on it, and Google is banning ads because people want to get rich quick off the back of it. When that music stops, the whole thing is going back to its ground state, which is zero.
    - darawk 9y ago
      > Trusting them might be, and of course it presents a perfect attack vector for a state to take a long ropey piss all over your “ultimate sovereignty” while chuckling deeply And what attack vector is that? You're not really trusting these nodes. They can't steal your money. > When that music stops, the whole thing is going back to its ground state, which is zero. People have been predicting that since Bitcoin hit $10. Sure hasn't worked out well for them.

darawk 9y ago

> I don’t care how many times “ultimate sovereignty” gets thrown around like it means anything important outside of a few narrow circles. If you don't think it means something, then Bitcoin is not for you. But to basically all of the investors in gold, this is the property they care about.

Erlangolem 9y ago
Most people invest in precious metals becaus the rate of new precious metals entering the market is bound to be a trickle, demand is high, and it has value (and has for thousands of years). The fact that precious metals are fungible assets shouldn’t be lost on you either. A small minority of rubes do buy gold because they entertain apocalyptic fantasies in which they’d A. Survive and B. Be able to retain their money. Most people who diversify into gold are not entertaining the fantasy that their governments don’t still control their fates.
- darawk 9y ago
  > A small minority of rubes do buy gold because they entertain apocalyptic fantasies in which they’d A. Survive and B. Be able to retain their money. You don't have to entertain the fantasy yourself to invest in it. You just have to trust that others do. That is what gold investment is, at a fundamental level.
  - Erlangolem 9y ago
    Gold isn’t in all of our electronics over a fantasy. Platinum isn’t a unique catalyst over a fantasy. Neither are fungible only in a fantasy. Investing in materials with industrial value, and thousands of years of aesthetic value, and perfect fungibility bears no real resemblance to ”Investing” in crypto. As a bonus, the SEC isn’t breathing down the neck of precious metals. Bitcoin has no real value, outside of a consensual fantasy.
    - darawk 9y ago
      > Gold isn’t in all of our electronics over a fantasy. How much influence do you think the sum of Gold's industrial uses exert over its value? I'll tell you: nearly zero. It's all speculation. > Bitcoin has no real value, outside of a consensual fantasy. All currencies have a value endogenous to their ecosystem. Bitcoin is no different. Bitcoin is used to pay transaction fees in the Bitcoin network. US dollars derive their value because the US government accepts them for taxes. These are equivalent properties, each contingent on the success of the thing that issues them. Owning bitcoin is a bet on future demand for bitcoin, which is a bet on future demand for bitcoin transactions, which necessarily cost BTC to perform. If you believe Bitcoin will come to mediate a significant fraction of global commerce, it's a good investment. If you don't, it's not. It's as simple as that.