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Even though we've all been thinking about self-driving cars for a long time, seeing videos of that steering wheel turning in the empty front seat is surprising.

Even though we've all been thinking about self-driving cars for a long time, seeing videos of that steering wheel turning in the empty front seat is surprising. I upvoted this article just for those few seconds of video. There's a whole class of things that are surprising when you see them for the first time, even if you think you're used to them. I wonder what properties this class of ideas have. Are they more exciting ideas? Do startups working on such things make more money? Or is the surprise merely an artifact of the degree and/or type of brokenness in our own mental models?

masklinn 9y ago
> Even though we've all been thinking about self-driving cars for a long time, seeing videos of that steering wheel turning in the empty front seat is surprising. I upvoted this article just for those few seconds of video. My biggest surprise was that they didn't remove the steering wheel entirely and let people sit at the front. That steering wheel moving on its own made me very uncomfortable.
- cuchoi 9y ago
  I think steering wheels still are needed, the car will not be driverless for all cases.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    There's no driver in the seat, it's not like the elderly passengers can jump to the front and take command.
    - adrianmonk 9y ago
      Let's say the LIDAR on top breaks down while the car is on a trip and that the car manages to safely pull into a parking lot. You want to get it back to the shop to fix it. You could always send a tow truck, but if it has a steering wheel, it's a whole lot easier to just send a driver.
      - SquirrelOnFire 9y ago
        Couldn't you send a driver out with a USB (or similar) steering wheel? That way an unlicensed driver wouldn't be able to operate the machine.
        mgms3535 9y ago
        Teleportation is also a solution
        sangnoir 9y ago
        Let's say the Lidar took down the CAN bus with it. Why needlessly complicate a v0.9 product that came with a mechanically-linked steering wheel from the factory?
  - wepple 9y ago
    One solution suggested for this is a remote driver when needed.
- apocalyptic0n3 9y ago
  I believe they are legally still required to have the steering wheel and have the ability for a human override. What you are describing is the core aspect of Level 5 automation (and a little bit of Level 4). We're seeing the first production Level 3 vehicles this year, so we are still a ways away from no steering wheel (probably ~10 years, depending on when laws are updated to allow for it)
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > I believe they are legally still required to have the steering wheel and have the ability for a human override. That makes no sense when they're not required to have a driver with their ass in the seat, are the elderly passengers from 00:33 going to unbuckle and jump over the front seat to take over driving?
    - salvar 9y ago
      The override may not be guaranteed to be useful in all possible cases, but surely you can think of situations where you'd really want there to be a steering wheel override available?
      - ct0 9y ago
        When the car needs to go on a tow truck you'll want a steering wheel.
- ma2rten 9y ago
  They actually built cars without steering wheels previously, but then decided they shouldn't be in the car manufacturing businesses. Now they are just repurposing the Pacifica mini-vans.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    Yeah I know, I just find it weirds. I guess they'd still have had to go through the DOT if they removed the mechanical driving bits from an existing car and didn't find it worth doing.
  - Fricken 9y ago
    Waymo never had any intention of manufacturing their own vehicles. They've been failing at finding a secure manufacturing partner for about 4 or 5 years now. Sebastien Thrun and Sergey Brin went into a number of auto executive board rooms basically suggesting that the auto industry should be ecstatic to become like foxconn, a brandless low-margin manufacturer of hardware to support Google products and services. The response from auto execs was basically "Fuck that noise", and the carmakers are responding aggressively to the shots that have been fired across their bow. Longer term this is a problem for Waymo. Their supposed partnership with Fiat Chrysler isn't a full-blown, intergrated manufacturing partnership. Waymo is mostly just buying Pacifica mini-vans from FCA and retrofitting them with Waymo's own custom designed hardware at a separate facility in Nova Michigan. This is not cost effective, and not viable as a long-term strategy. If Waymo does have a strategy for producing robotaxis in the tens of thousands, they've been very quiet about it. With every year that goes by building an autonomous OS gets easier. Best practices have been established, knowledge continually disseminates throughout the industry, there is, every year less software and hardware that needs to be built from scratch. Automobile mass production, on the other hand, isn't getting any easier. It's as hard as it ever was. So really, over the long run, it's the legacy automakers who have the true competitive moat, and the real bargaining power.
    - masklinn 9y ago
      > Sebastien Thrun and Sergey Brin went into a number of auto executive board rooms basically suggesting that the auto industry should be ecstatic to become like foxconn, a brandless low-margin manufacturer of hardware to support Google products and services. Did… the… what? They didn't actually try that did they? Did nobody tell them auto exec have been fucking over their supply chains for a century?
- giarc 9y ago
  GM had a prototype car a long time ago with a 'drive by wire' system (as I'm sure other manufacturers have had). There was a steering wheel but it wasn't connected to any steering column/shaft. It just had sensors that recognized the actions and turned the wheels accordingly. A system like that could work where the steering wheel doesn't respond to the user when self-driving but is enabled when needed. Prevents accidental steering.
  - gsnedders 9y ago
    There have been cars in production with steer-by-wire for years now; I believe the Infiniti Q50 in 2013 was the first.
lallysingh 9y ago
I still feel the same way about wireless printing. Partially because I'm on Linux and am still surprised it works so well.
- euyyn 9y ago
  Printing from Linux works now??
  - wpietri 9y ago
    Even audio works now. Truly, this is the year of Linux on the desktop.
    - aidenn0 9y ago
      I left my Linux laptop unplugged by accident the other day and it suspended to disk before the battery ran out so I lost no data. It's like Linux became usable and I didn't notice.
      - euyyn 9y ago
        If you close the lid without suspending first, does it crash? Or has that been fixed too?
        aidenn0 9y ago
        Did not crash for me.
    - ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
      Does the new Firefox work with HTML 5 video? I listen to way too much youtube when I am working, and am still worried about making the switch.
      - wpietri 9y ago
        I just checked, and it works for me.

masklinn 9y ago

> Even though we've all been thinking about self-driving cars for a long time, seeing videos of that steering wheel turning in the empty front seat is surprising. I upvoted this article just for those few seconds of video. My biggest surprise was that they didn't remove the steering wheel entirely and let people sit at the front. That steering wheel moving on its own made me very uncomfortable.

cuchoi 9y ago
I think steering wheels still are needed, the car will not be driverless for all cases.
- masklinn 9y ago
  There's no driver in the seat, it's not like the elderly passengers can jump to the front and take command.
  - adrianmonk 9y ago
    Let's say the LIDAR on top breaks down while the car is on a trip and that the car manages to safely pull into a parking lot. You want to get it back to the shop to fix it. You could always send a tow truck, but if it has a steering wheel, it's a whole lot easier to just send a driver.
    - SquirrelOnFire 9y ago
      Couldn't you send a driver out with a USB (or similar) steering wheel? That way an unlicensed driver wouldn't be able to operate the machine.
      - mgms3535 9y ago
        Teleportation is also a solution
      - sangnoir 9y ago
        Let's say the Lidar took down the CAN bus with it. Why needlessly complicate a v0.9 product that came with a mechanically-linked steering wheel from the factory?
- wepple 9y ago
  One solution suggested for this is a remote driver when needed.
apocalyptic0n3 9y ago
I believe they are legally still required to have the steering wheel and have the ability for a human override. What you are describing is the core aspect of Level 5 automation (and a little bit of Level 4). We're seeing the first production Level 3 vehicles this year, so we are still a ways away from no steering wheel (probably ~10 years, depending on when laws are updated to allow for it)
- masklinn 9y ago
  > I believe they are legally still required to have the steering wheel and have the ability for a human override. That makes no sense when they're not required to have a driver with their ass in the seat, are the elderly passengers from 00:33 going to unbuckle and jump over the front seat to take over driving?
  - salvar 9y ago
    The override may not be guaranteed to be useful in all possible cases, but surely you can think of situations where you'd really want there to be a steering wheel override available?
    - ct0 9y ago
      When the car needs to go on a tow truck you'll want a steering wheel.
ma2rten 9y ago
They actually built cars without steering wheels previously, but then decided they shouldn't be in the car manufacturing businesses. Now they are just repurposing the Pacifica mini-vans.
- masklinn 9y ago
  Yeah I know, I just find it weirds. I guess they'd still have had to go through the DOT if they removed the mechanical driving bits from an existing car and didn't find it worth doing.
- Fricken 9y ago
  Waymo never had any intention of manufacturing their own vehicles. They've been failing at finding a secure manufacturing partner for about 4 or 5 years now. Sebastien Thrun and Sergey Brin went into a number of auto executive board rooms basically suggesting that the auto industry should be ecstatic to become like foxconn, a brandless low-margin manufacturer of hardware to support Google products and services. The response from auto execs was basically "Fuck that noise", and the carmakers are responding aggressively to the shots that have been fired across their bow. Longer term this is a problem for Waymo. Their supposed partnership with Fiat Chrysler isn't a full-blown, intergrated manufacturing partnership. Waymo is mostly just buying Pacifica mini-vans from FCA and retrofitting them with Waymo's own custom designed hardware at a separate facility in Nova Michigan. This is not cost effective, and not viable as a long-term strategy. If Waymo does have a strategy for producing robotaxis in the tens of thousands, they've been very quiet about it. With every year that goes by building an autonomous OS gets easier. Best practices have been established, knowledge continually disseminates throughout the industry, there is, every year less software and hardware that needs to be built from scratch. Automobile mass production, on the other hand, isn't getting any easier. It's as hard as it ever was. So really, over the long run, it's the legacy automakers who have the true competitive moat, and the real bargaining power.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > Sebastien Thrun and Sergey Brin went into a number of auto executive board rooms basically suggesting that the auto industry should be ecstatic to become like foxconn, a brandless low-margin manufacturer of hardware to support Google products and services. Did… the… what? They didn't actually try that did they? Did nobody tell them auto exec have been fucking over their supply chains for a century?
giarc 9y ago
GM had a prototype car a long time ago with a 'drive by wire' system (as I'm sure other manufacturers have had). There was a steering wheel but it wasn't connected to any steering column/shaft. It just had sensors that recognized the actions and turned the wheels accordingly. A system like that could work where the steering wheel doesn't respond to the user when self-driving but is enabled when needed. Prevents accidental steering.
- gsnedders 9y ago
  There have been cars in production with steer-by-wire for years now; I believe the Infiniti Q50 in 2013 was the first.

lallysingh 9y ago

I still feel the same way about wireless printing. Partially because I'm on Linux and am still surprised it works so well.

euyyn 9y ago
Printing from Linux works now??
- wpietri 9y ago
  Even audio works now. Truly, this is the year of Linux on the desktop.
  - aidenn0 9y ago
    I left my Linux laptop unplugged by accident the other day and it suspended to disk before the battery ran out so I lost no data. It's like Linux became usable and I didn't notice.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      If you close the lid without suspending first, does it crash? Or has that been fixed too?
      - aidenn0 9y ago
        Did not crash for me.
  - ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
    Does the new Firefox work with HTML 5 video? I listen to way too much youtube when I am working, and am still worried about making the switch.
    - wpietri 9y ago
      I just checked, and it works for me.