17 ms·

Loneliness on the Job: Why No Employee Is an Island

183 points by fern12 9y ago

twoquestions 9y ago
What I've always been taught is when you go into work, you cease to be a person, and become a thing. You have no dreams, desires, wants, emotions, or needs (You may be hired to project an emotion, but you're not to have any authentic emotions yourself). Your sole reason for existence is to provide the labor your employer is buying. Your own loneliness is your sole responsibility. If you don't have the information you need to do your job that is your manager's responsibility to remedy, but their job stops the instant you have the tools you need to do yours.
- JeremyBanks 9y ago
  That's wonderful philosophizing, but if you RTFA the entire point is that it affects productivity and so it would be negligent for employers to ignore it.
  - ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
    What does "RTFA" mean?
    - stevenwoo 9y ago
      Read the f(obscene gerund) article.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      Read the featured article.
    - ABCLAW 9y ago
      RTFA = Read the [Expletive] Article.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - twoquestions 9y ago
    I mean the fact that it does is the problem, and it shouldn't be on managers to fix it. You're lonely, your problem. At every job I've ever worked, you're paid for your output, not to socialize.
    - geofft 9y ago
      A manager's job is to deliver business value. A manager's job is not to hypothetically deliver business value if their employees were less emotional. If the manager chooses to deliver business value by hiring humans instead of robots, the manager is obligated to care about the fact they are human and help them improve their productivity, to ensure that effort the company spends training the employee is not wasted if they lose morale and leave, and so forth. A manager who ignores these responsibilities might be great at pursuing an ideal, but their job is not pursuing an ideal. Their job is delivering business value. If the human you hire needs to socialize to be productive, that's no different from the printer you bought needing toner to be productive. Telling a printer without toner "You're paid for your output" is shirking your responsibilities. (There are certainly a lot of managers—and a lot of businesses—that are more interested in pursuing some philosophy of how business should be run than effectively delivering business value. They are objectively wrong.)
    - wtetzner 9y ago
      > You're lonely, your problem. If it causes lower productivity, then it's the company's problem. Unless they're skilled at hiring people who don't have this problem. > At every job I've ever worked, you're paid for your output, not to socialize. Of course, but if socializing increases output, then aren't they the same thing?
      - sgift 9y ago
        Correct. Which is one of the reasons many people who transition to management from tech suck at it: Humans are not machines. If they have problems outside their work those problems will leak into the work and will influence it. So, you better try to help them if you expect them to work at their best capacity. Or you ignore it, bleed people out and then cry that no one there does good work, everyone quits all the time and you are such a misunderstood poor manager. The idea that you can just hire people who will never feel lonely (or have some other problems in their life) is in itself quite amusing.
- dbecker 9y ago
  I haven't worked for an employer that's held that view since high school (when I bagged groceries). I'm skeptical any successful business treats high-skilled employees that way.
  - poulsbohemian 9y ago
    This was every company I've ever worked at or consulted to, which is in large part at the root of why I went freelance. Are there really great companies with culture that treats highly-paid, highly-skilled professionals as professionals? Yes, I'm sure there are, but they are rare.
    - exelius 9y ago
      Go work for a big 4 as a consultant in your specialty? Sure you’ll work 80 hours a week and travel basically all the time, but you get a lot of latitude and professionalism in exchange for that.
      - p0ints 9y ago
        My (anecdotal) observation is that this big4 "professionalism" is mostly a self-imporant delusion (probably imprinted into people by years of company culture and trainings), and that a lot of senior people in there are insufferable wankers. That's from my experience with senior managers from Deloitte and PwC.
        exelius 9y ago
        Haha, completely true, but you get a lot of latitude and you are actually valued as an employee — unlike most salaried jobs, there is a direct correlation between your paycheck and the company’s revenue. There is also a high incentive for the company to pay to keep your skills up-to-date. The culture in consulting has its problems, but things are getting better and we’re seeing a lot more women entering senior roles which is starting to fix some of the bad behavior that has traditionally gone on. As for acting self-important? It takes a fucking ego to have a 27 year old kid tell a 50 year old SVP how to do his job. But as a result, people in consulting generally respect each others large egos, which gets you some degree of professionalism.
- draw_down 9y ago
  Yikes. That is bleak.
- copper_think 9y ago
  There may be an expectation at work for you to have the desire to advance within the organization, i.e. career ambition.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- maxaf 9y ago
  Your point of view is considered scandalous by the local audience, but I'm inclined to agree. I was born in the Soviet Union and grew up in 1990s Russia after history threw a few sucker punches in our direction. I can say from watching my parents and other adults that "shut up & do your job no matter what" was a common enough sentiment that to me it might as well be the only possible truth. Here and now, in late capitalism, we seem to be aspiring to some other arrangement, which is commendable in itself, but I observe it with healthy skepticism. It is my responsibility to make myself happy. I'm lucky to have a boss who cares about my well-being, but I see his efforts as secondary and something to be leveraged in order to improve the company as a whole, not somehow make me happier as a person. I'll take care of that last part myself. Edit: a late-breaking thought I would like to include. He who externalizes happiness is bound to be disappointed, as the incentive is simply missing to make others happy without asking for anything is return. Better learn to DIY happiness.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I was born in US midwest, and am in my mid 30s. I do not go to work to make friends or to be social. I will be polite, but I am there to get paid. I provide labor, and in return I receive money. Socializing is for outside my 40 hours/week, with those I chose, not those my employer chooses. The touchy feely family feeling isn't for me.
    - maxaf 9y ago
      Exactly! That's why we have separate words for "family" and "colleagues".
  - rootusrootus 9y ago
    That seems healthy. I am a newly minted manager and maybe I'm going about this the wrong way, but I try to ensure the people reporting to me are happy at work. Within the bounds of meeting the needs of the company, of course, since we are professionals. I try to encourage my people to have a healthy relationship with the office and their peers, be realistic, etc, partly because I like them as people but a certain aspect of it is that I want us all to be successful and productive as a team. As to their personal happiness it really isn't my place nor within my skills to work on. I'm not a therapist.
tabeth 9y ago
Inclusiveness is definitely important. I'd be interested about the following trade offs in a more practical, balance sheet, sense: 1. Does providing job security at the expense of pay increase or decrease loneliness? Obviously if the pay is too low there will be turnover, but is there an amount X, where X is not market rate, but still high enough so that if there were security people would just stay? Surely low turn over will result in more relationship formation which can be positively correlated with not feeling lonely. 2. How does a dining area and free food affect loneliness? Will it make it worse by highlighting things, or will it encourage everyone to eat in the [company provided] dining area, sparking new relationships? If both, what's the distribution? 3. If measures to reduce loneliness results in the formation of cliques, is that a positive outcome if those left out feel alienated? In general, to what extent should employers focus on this? This reminds me of how some employers try to encourage an active lifestyle, which is generally positive, but at what point are things simply intrusive?
- caylus 9y ago
  > How does a dining area and free food affect loneliness? Will it make it worse by highlighting things This is my experience exactly. I'm sure at a certain company size it might help form connections, but at my larger company people arrange into cliques. It's like the high school cafeteria all over again. I've switched to eating at my desk, not because I don't want to be social, but because it's less painful than being rejected by the cliques.
  - kolpa 9y ago
    Does being rejected by cliques at lunch make your experience worse than be rejected by cliques in other activities at work? Would a non-cafeteria workplace, where cliques went outside to eat, or brown-bagged in the break area, or sat each at their own desk, felt less painful?
    - caylus 9y ago
      > Does being rejected by cliques at lunch make your experience worse than be rejected by cliques in other activities at work? Fair point. I'd say the frustration comes more from the double-talk of "look how inclusive our workplace culture is: everyone eats together in the cafeteria!" The company admitting "we don't have any norms around lunch; everyone is on their own" would not be an objectively better experience, but at least would be honest. Another option would be to have more official team, group, or project-based lunches, rather than a free-for-all, where specific members of a team privately invite other specific members of a team. I don't mean to turn this into a rant, just adding a data point :)
k__ 9y ago
I never really liked co-workers. But I never really liked most people. Started remote working, because it gave me more time to meet with people of my own choosing.
RickJWag 9y ago
As a baby boomer, this would have confused me 'till recently. I've been studying generational differences for an upcoming talk, so I'm tuned into generational attitudes. We had a mail-list thread this past week about an employee who felt lonely. I found it hard to relate to, but someone on the thread mentioned a YouTube video by Simon Sinek, it's about Millennials in the workplace. It really clicked-- I can see how some people feel this way.
- daveFNbuck 9y ago
  What about this confuses you? Is it that someone could be lonely at work, that someone would expect not to be lonely at work, or something else? Your confusion is as surprising to me as workplace loneliness is to you and I'm genuinely curious to see your answer.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    No op, but it's not surprising that someone might feel lonely in any context. What's surprising is that so many people would lack the social skills to rectify this problem that employers have created policies where they instruct your co-workers to be your "friend.". And it's equally surprising that an employee would have this expectation of their employer. It's rather juvenile, like parents setting up play dates for their kids.
    - daveFNbuck 9y ago
      I don't see the idea that managers should assign friends in this interview. Where are you getting that from?
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        I was referring to this comment in the grandparent post: >We had a mail-list thread this past week about an employee who felt lonely.
        9y ago
Bertio 9y ago
I've experienced lonliness on the job but I've come to realize it has more to do with having meaningful work than meaningful relationships. If I'm doing work that is contributing and adding value I will not care at all about the people I'm surrounded by or if they even know I exist. When I'm underworked I start to feel excluded and isolated. Currently I'm bordering on overwork and I find socializing taxing. When I work from home I do twice as much work but I don't need to sleep on the couch after work.
amorphid 9y ago
As a developer, I've definitely felt lonely at work. I'd guess that it's caused by my personal feeling that development should treated as a collaborative effort by default; it's too hard to do solo most/all of the time, and yet my teammates & I are often expected/encouraged to work solo.
b0rsuk 9y ago
Here in Poland it's very risky to connect with your colleagues. I think it's the case for all countries with low social trust rating. In theory, you're working together for common gain, because if your company is better off you should earn more and work should be easier and quality better, right? Yet in Poland people are very eager to get advantage of one another. It's got to the point where I don't trust coworkers by default. I'm helpful, but careful.
- donttrack 9y ago
  Is this a general thing in Poland? Any other Polish people feel like this? A lot of my work is being outsourced to Poland and I am thinking I could use their distrust of each other to my advantage in some way.
  - p0ints 9y ago
    My view is the opposite - Poles are more honest (which usually translates to - more whiney) at their jobs than Western people, where centuries of capitalism have taught people that it's best to keep your thoughts to yourself and pretend to be happy/content. Poles have yet to internalize this lesson.
    - b0rsuk 9y ago
      It depends what you mean. To Poles Americans look quite fake with their smiling mask, and adjectives ranking from "good" to "awesome". The world "beautiful" sticks out like a sore thumb when you read web frontend/design blogs. Words like that are reserved for truly astonishing works. There is no expectation that you feel great all the time. Ask and you usually get an honest answer(bragging on a job interview notwithstanding). It's not like I heard about India where I heard IT workers often don't ask questions or are afraid to admit they don't understand something. There is also no strong expectation to participate in polite small talk like in UK. Gosh, it's hard to say, I'll have to travel a bit to see Poland from outside. But leave your bike, or even an umbrella unattended for a few moments and it's likely to get stolen. If you drop money in a public place, it's very unlikely to be returned anywhere - it's seen as a windfall. Fenced houses and (multi-flat) blocks are getting VERY popular. In fact, people bring screens to beaches to separate themselves from each other (usually by family), sometimes even "reserving" spots on public beaches(they have no right). Some foreigners half-jokingly use the term "polish disease" to describe materialistic attitude of many Polish girls. Government clerks are famously unhelpful and make you do their job. Recruitment agencies are almost entirely focused on employer needs. Cheating in school is widespread and very rarely reported by classmates. You're seen as a snitch. It's similar with reporting bad drivers. Tax avoidance and frauds are more tolerated, even among politicians("Everyone does that / all political parties do it anyway"). There are many laws and rules which are not used in practice - the most spectacular example is the Smoleńsk plane crash in 2010 where most of the political elite, including the president, died. Also keep in mind Poles working abroad are usually the most ambitious and honest ones, because they understand Westerners appreciate that. It's refreshing being able to just focus on doing a good job, and with expensive equipment. I guess the bottom line is Poles often don't trust you, but are honest about it. This is of course largely a product of Soviet influence (technically Poland was a part of Warsaw Pact, but NOT a part of Soviet Union) and resulting material powerty. Romania, Russia are similar but even more grim. What is jaw-dropping to a Pole? "I was a construction worker in Denmark. At the end of the shift, I suggested that we store our tools indoors. - Why? We'll be working in the same place." (expecting theft) That until recent years Swedes didn't lock their homes. In a swedish fairy tale "Moonintrolls", one of characters suggest that they repair an old boat they found, so that they can use it better or give back a nice boat if the owner shows up. The idea that you might be happy about giving back an object you put your work into like that. That in other countries ministers delegate work and important decisions up to their subordinates, and that most of civil service and (local) administration stays when the ruling party changes. Polish politicians like to micromanage, and behavior like that is seen as sign of weakness. Interesting read on social trust in various countries: http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/uncategorized/social-trust-is-one-of-the-most-important-measures-that-most-people-have-never-heard-of-and-its-moving/ http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/uncategorized/social-tr...
doyoulikeworms 9y ago
My current job makes me feel very lonely. I’m not close in age to many of my coworkers and the place is very cliquey. It feels awful. I was on the verge of leaving, but actually ended up staying when I made a close friend. When that relationship dissipated, I interviewed elsewhere and put in my notice. The social climate really makes a difference in a way I didn’t appreciate until I started this job!
- hnarn 9y ago
  I'm in the same boat. I recommend anyone reading this that feel the same way to start looking for other jobs immediately. If not for your career, at least do it for your own mental health. (I'm also leaving soon)
- scarface74 9y ago
  I haven't made friends at my job. I don't have the same interests as any of the other developers. On the other hand, I have a group of five friends that I made at my previous job that I keep in touch with in a private Slack group and we meet for lunch once or twice a month. I knew I was going to be a short timer at this job for various reasons and never bothered. I do keep in touch with one former coworker at a job I had in 2011. I married her....
  - doyoulikeworms 9y ago
    I personally require more, like, personal engagement with my colleagues, I guess. I want to feel like I’m working with friends, but some cultures can make it feel like I’m often working with adversaries. Some workplaces require you to “break into” the cliques in order to progress or work on high-visibility projects. This can make career progression feel like a political issue more than a technical issue. That said, I also coincidentally married a woman I met at work :) And also keep up with friends from old jobs. This will likely be the first job that I’ll end up leaving without keeping in touch with anyone. That’s how isolating some places can be!
monster_group 9y ago
On one of my jobs the entire team was a certain nationality and spoke a different language (this was in a country where English is the default and dominant language). When they talked to me they talked in English otherwise they would talk in their own language even when having discussions about work. I felt very excluded. I tried to stay on but couldn't. I left just after three months.

183 points by fern12 9y ago

What I've always been taught is when you go into work, you cease to be a person, and become a thing. You have no dreams, desires, wants, emotions, or needs (You may be hired to project an emotion, but you're not to have any authentic emotions yourself). Your sole reason for existence is to provide the labor your employer is buying. Your own loneliness is your sole responsibility. If you don't have the information you need to do your job that is your manager's responsibility to remedy, but their job stops the instant you have the tools you need to do yours.

JeremyBanks 9y ago
That's wonderful philosophizing, but if you RTFA the entire point is that it affects productivity and so it would be negligent for employers to ignore it.
- ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
  What does "RTFA" mean?
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    Read the f(obscene gerund) article.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    Read the featured article.
  - ABCLAW 9y ago
    RTFA = Read the [Expletive] Article.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- twoquestions 9y ago
  I mean the fact that it does is the problem, and it shouldn't be on managers to fix it. You're lonely, your problem. At every job I've ever worked, you're paid for your output, not to socialize.
  - geofft 9y ago
    A manager's job is to deliver business value. A manager's job is not to hypothetically deliver business value if their employees were less emotional. If the manager chooses to deliver business value by hiring humans instead of robots, the manager is obligated to care about the fact they are human and help them improve their productivity, to ensure that effort the company spends training the employee is not wasted if they lose morale and leave, and so forth. A manager who ignores these responsibilities might be great at pursuing an ideal, but their job is not pursuing an ideal. Their job is delivering business value. If the human you hire needs to socialize to be productive, that's no different from the printer you bought needing toner to be productive. Telling a printer without toner "You're paid for your output" is shirking your responsibilities. (There are certainly a lot of managers—and a lot of businesses—that are more interested in pursuing some philosophy of how business should be run than effectively delivering business value. They are objectively wrong.)
  - wtetzner 9y ago
    > You're lonely, your problem. If it causes lower productivity, then it's the company's problem. Unless they're skilled at hiring people who don't have this problem. > At every job I've ever worked, you're paid for your output, not to socialize. Of course, but if socializing increases output, then aren't they the same thing?
    - sgift 9y ago
      Correct. Which is one of the reasons many people who transition to management from tech suck at it: Humans are not machines. If they have problems outside their work those problems will leak into the work and will influence it. So, you better try to help them if you expect them to work at their best capacity. Or you ignore it, bleed people out and then cry that no one there does good work, everyone quits all the time and you are such a misunderstood poor manager. The idea that you can just hire people who will never feel lonely (or have some other problems in their life) is in itself quite amusing.
dbecker 9y ago
I haven't worked for an employer that's held that view since high school (when I bagged groceries). I'm skeptical any successful business treats high-skilled employees that way.
- poulsbohemian 9y ago
  This was every company I've ever worked at or consulted to, which is in large part at the root of why I went freelance. Are there really great companies with culture that treats highly-paid, highly-skilled professionals as professionals? Yes, I'm sure there are, but they are rare.
  - exelius 9y ago
    Go work for a big 4 as a consultant in your specialty? Sure you’ll work 80 hours a week and travel basically all the time, but you get a lot of latitude and professionalism in exchange for that.
    - p0ints 9y ago
      My (anecdotal) observation is that this big4 "professionalism" is mostly a self-imporant delusion (probably imprinted into people by years of company culture and trainings), and that a lot of senior people in there are insufferable wankers. That's from my experience with senior managers from Deloitte and PwC.
      - exelius 9y ago
        Haha, completely true, but you get a lot of latitude and you are actually valued as an employee — unlike most salaried jobs, there is a direct correlation between your paycheck and the company’s revenue. There is also a high incentive for the company to pay to keep your skills up-to-date. The culture in consulting has its problems, but things are getting better and we’re seeing a lot more women entering senior roles which is starting to fix some of the bad behavior that has traditionally gone on. As for acting self-important? It takes a fucking ego to have a 27 year old kid tell a 50 year old SVP how to do his job. But as a result, people in consulting generally respect each others large egos, which gets you some degree of professionalism.
draw_down 9y ago
Yikes. That is bleak.
copper_think 9y ago
There may be an expectation at work for you to have the desire to advance within the organization, i.e. career ambition.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
maxaf 9y ago
Your point of view is considered scandalous by the local audience, but I'm inclined to agree. I was born in the Soviet Union and grew up in 1990s Russia after history threw a few sucker punches in our direction. I can say from watching my parents and other adults that "shut up & do your job no matter what" was a common enough sentiment that to me it might as well be the only possible truth. Here and now, in late capitalism, we seem to be aspiring to some other arrangement, which is commendable in itself, but I observe it with healthy skepticism. It is my responsibility to make myself happy. I'm lucky to have a boss who cares about my well-being, but I see his efforts as secondary and something to be leveraged in order to improve the company as a whole, not somehow make me happier as a person. I'll take care of that last part myself. Edit: a late-breaking thought I would like to include. He who externalizes happiness is bound to be disappointed, as the incentive is simply missing to make others happy without asking for anything is return. Better learn to DIY happiness.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  I was born in US midwest, and am in my mid 30s. I do not go to work to make friends or to be social. I will be polite, but I am there to get paid. I provide labor, and in return I receive money. Socializing is for outside my 40 hours/week, with those I chose, not those my employer chooses. The touchy feely family feeling isn't for me.
  - maxaf 9y ago
    Exactly! That's why we have separate words for "family" and "colleagues".
- rootusrootus 9y ago
  That seems healthy. I am a newly minted manager and maybe I'm going about this the wrong way, but I try to ensure the people reporting to me are happy at work. Within the bounds of meeting the needs of the company, of course, since we are professionals. I try to encourage my people to have a healthy relationship with the office and their peers, be realistic, etc, partly because I like them as people but a certain aspect of it is that I want us all to be successful and productive as a team. As to their personal happiness it really isn't my place nor within my skills to work on. I'm not a therapist.

tabeth 9y ago

Inclusiveness is definitely important. I'd be interested about the following trade offs in a more practical, balance sheet, sense: 1. Does providing job security at the expense of pay increase or decrease loneliness? Obviously if the pay is too low there will be turnover, but is there an amount X, where X is not market rate, but still high enough so that if there were security people would just stay? Surely low turn over will result in more relationship formation which can be positively correlated with not feeling lonely. 2. How does a dining area and free food affect loneliness? Will it make it worse by highlighting things, or will it encourage everyone to eat in the [company provided] dining area, sparking new relationships? If both, what's the distribution? 3. If measures to reduce loneliness results in the formation of cliques, is that a positive outcome if those left out feel alienated? In general, to what extent should employers focus on this? This reminds me of how some employers try to encourage an active lifestyle, which is generally positive, but at what point are things simply intrusive?

caylus 9y ago
> How does a dining area and free food affect loneliness? Will it make it worse by highlighting things This is my experience exactly. I'm sure at a certain company size it might help form connections, but at my larger company people arrange into cliques. It's like the high school cafeteria all over again. I've switched to eating at my desk, not because I don't want to be social, but because it's less painful than being rejected by the cliques.
- kolpa 9y ago
  Does being rejected by cliques at lunch make your experience worse than be rejected by cliques in other activities at work? Would a non-cafeteria workplace, where cliques went outside to eat, or brown-bagged in the break area, or sat each at their own desk, felt less painful?
  - caylus 9y ago
    > Does being rejected by cliques at lunch make your experience worse than be rejected by cliques in other activities at work? Fair point. I'd say the frustration comes more from the double-talk of "look how inclusive our workplace culture is: everyone eats together in the cafeteria!" The company admitting "we don't have any norms around lunch; everyone is on their own" would not be an objectively better experience, but at least would be honest. Another option would be to have more official team, group, or project-based lunches, rather than a free-for-all, where specific members of a team privately invite other specific members of a team. I don't mean to turn this into a rant, just adding a data point :)

k__ 9y ago

I never really liked co-workers. But I never really liked most people. Started remote working, because it gave me more time to meet with people of my own choosing.

RickJWag 9y ago

As a baby boomer, this would have confused me 'till recently. I've been studying generational differences for an upcoming talk, so I'm tuned into generational attitudes. We had a mail-list thread this past week about an employee who felt lonely. I found it hard to relate to, but someone on the thread mentioned a YouTube video by Simon Sinek, it's about Millennials in the workplace. It really clicked-- I can see how some people feel this way.

daveFNbuck 9y ago
What about this confuses you? Is it that someone could be lonely at work, that someone would expect not to be lonely at work, or something else? Your confusion is as surprising to me as workplace loneliness is to you and I'm genuinely curious to see your answer.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  No op, but it's not surprising that someone might feel lonely in any context. What's surprising is that so many people would lack the social skills to rectify this problem that employers have created policies where they instruct your co-workers to be your "friend.". And it's equally surprising that an employee would have this expectation of their employer. It's rather juvenile, like parents setting up play dates for their kids.
  - daveFNbuck 9y ago
    I don't see the idea that managers should assign friends in this interview. Where are you getting that from?
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      I was referring to this comment in the grandparent post: >We had a mail-list thread this past week about an employee who felt lonely.
      - 9y ago

Bertio 9y ago

I've experienced lonliness on the job but I've come to realize it has more to do with having meaningful work than meaningful relationships. If I'm doing work that is contributing and adding value I will not care at all about the people I'm surrounded by or if they even know I exist. When I'm underworked I start to feel excluded and isolated. Currently I'm bordering on overwork and I find socializing taxing. When I work from home I do twice as much work but I don't need to sleep on the couch after work.

amorphid 9y ago

As a developer, I've definitely felt lonely at work. I'd guess that it's caused by my personal feeling that development should treated as a collaborative effort by default; it's too hard to do solo most/all of the time, and yet my teammates & I are often expected/encouraged to work solo.

b0rsuk 9y ago

Here in Poland it's very risky to connect with your colleagues. I think it's the case for all countries with low social trust rating. In theory, you're working together for common gain, because if your company is better off you should earn more and work should be easier and quality better, right? Yet in Poland people are very eager to get advantage of one another. It's got to the point where I don't trust coworkers by default. I'm helpful, but careful.

donttrack 9y ago
Is this a general thing in Poland? Any other Polish people feel like this? A lot of my work is being outsourced to Poland and I am thinking I could use their distrust of each other to my advantage in some way.
- p0ints 9y ago
  My view is the opposite - Poles are more honest (which usually translates to - more whiney) at their jobs than Western people, where centuries of capitalism have taught people that it's best to keep your thoughts to yourself and pretend to be happy/content. Poles have yet to internalize this lesson.
  - b0rsuk 9y ago
    It depends what you mean. To Poles Americans look quite fake with their smiling mask, and adjectives ranking from "good" to "awesome". The world "beautiful" sticks out like a sore thumb when you read web frontend/design blogs. Words like that are reserved for truly astonishing works. There is no expectation that you feel great all the time. Ask and you usually get an honest answer(bragging on a job interview notwithstanding). It's not like I heard about India where I heard IT workers often don't ask questions or are afraid to admit they don't understand something. There is also no strong expectation to participate in polite small talk like in UK. Gosh, it's hard to say, I'll have to travel a bit to see Poland from outside. But leave your bike, or even an umbrella unattended for a few moments and it's likely to get stolen. If you drop money in a public place, it's very unlikely to be returned anywhere - it's seen as a windfall. Fenced houses and (multi-flat) blocks are getting VERY popular. In fact, people bring screens to beaches to separate themselves from each other (usually by family), sometimes even "reserving" spots on public beaches(they have no right). Some foreigners half-jokingly use the term "polish disease" to describe materialistic attitude of many Polish girls. Government clerks are famously unhelpful and make you do their job. Recruitment agencies are almost entirely focused on employer needs. Cheating in school is widespread and very rarely reported by classmates. You're seen as a snitch. It's similar with reporting bad drivers. Tax avoidance and frauds are more tolerated, even among politicians("Everyone does that / all political parties do it anyway"). There are many laws and rules which are not used in practice - the most spectacular example is the Smoleńsk plane crash in 2010 where most of the political elite, including the president, died. Also keep in mind Poles working abroad are usually the most ambitious and honest ones, because they understand Westerners appreciate that. It's refreshing being able to just focus on doing a good job, and with expensive equipment. I guess the bottom line is Poles often don't trust you, but are honest about it. This is of course largely a product of Soviet influence (technically Poland was a part of Warsaw Pact, but NOT a part of Soviet Union) and resulting material powerty. Romania, Russia are similar but even more grim. What is jaw-dropping to a Pole? "I was a construction worker in Denmark. At the end of the shift, I suggested that we store our tools indoors. - Why? We'll be working in the same place." (expecting theft) That until recent years Swedes didn't lock their homes. In a swedish fairy tale "Moonintrolls", one of characters suggest that they repair an old boat they found, so that they can use it better or give back a nice boat if the owner shows up. The idea that you might be happy about giving back an object you put your work into like that. That in other countries ministers delegate work and important decisions up to their subordinates, and that most of civil service and (local) administration stays when the ruling party changes. Polish politicians like to micromanage, and behavior like that is seen as sign of weakness. Interesting read on social trust in various countries: http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/uncategorized/social-trust-is-one-of-the-most-important-measures-that-most-people-have-never-heard-of-and-its-moving/ http://www.behaviouralinsights.co.uk/uncategorized/social-tr...

doyoulikeworms 9y ago

My current job makes me feel very lonely. I’m not close in age to many of my coworkers and the place is very cliquey. It feels awful. I was on the verge of leaving, but actually ended up staying when I made a close friend. When that relationship dissipated, I interviewed elsewhere and put in my notice. The social climate really makes a difference in a way I didn’t appreciate until I started this job!

hnarn 9y ago
I'm in the same boat. I recommend anyone reading this that feel the same way to start looking for other jobs immediately. If not for your career, at least do it for your own mental health. (I'm also leaving soon)
scarface74 9y ago
I haven't made friends at my job. I don't have the same interests as any of the other developers. On the other hand, I have a group of five friends that I made at my previous job that I keep in touch with in a private Slack group and we meet for lunch once or twice a month. I knew I was going to be a short timer at this job for various reasons and never bothered. I do keep in touch with one former coworker at a job I had in 2011. I married her....
- doyoulikeworms 9y ago
  I personally require more, like, personal engagement with my colleagues, I guess. I want to feel like I’m working with friends, but some cultures can make it feel like I’m often working with adversaries. Some workplaces require you to “break into” the cliques in order to progress or work on high-visibility projects. This can make career progression feel like a political issue more than a technical issue. That said, I also coincidentally married a woman I met at work :) And also keep up with friends from old jobs. This will likely be the first job that I’ll end up leaving without keeping in touch with anyone. That’s how isolating some places can be!

monster_group 9y ago

On one of my jobs the entire team was a certain nationality and spoke a different language (this was in a country where English is the default and dominant language). When they talked to me they talked in English otherwise they would talk in their own language even when having discussions about work. I felt very excluded. I tried to stay on but couldn't. I left just after three months.