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Britain expels Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy

67 points by LuisOrtiz 9y ago

hugh4life 9y ago
I'll be frank, this whole situation seems really fishy... I don't think Russia had anything to do with this. Not with the elections and world cup within months. It makes zero sense whatsoever. But I also don't feel sorry for them because their past shady and thuggish behavior makes it easy for them to be framed for such acts.
- fenk85 9y ago
  You know what makes zero sense? shooting passenger airplanes out of the sky, but here we are...
  - myth_drannon 9y ago
    Just adding explanation to the cryptic comment: Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
    - fenk85 9y ago
      Erm no more like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
    - proaralyst 9y ago
      I think the parent may have been referring to the Malaysian Airlines passenger jet shot down over Ukraine with a Russian anti-air missile system.
- ictoan 9y ago
  What is it that makes this fishy to you? Why do you think Russia is not responsible? Who else would've done this? Did someone just magically have a rare nerve agent made in Russia, brought it to UK and sprayed it on an ex-Russian spy? Gosh, what a freak accident! Or if someone did it on purpose then what is his intention? Why would someone go out of his way to frame Russia? What is the goal? Purpose? Or maybe... just maybe... it is just Russia being Russia and doing shady Soviet style operations.
  - hugh4life 9y ago
    Mossad could easily be as responsible and they have motive with Syria.
    - ictoan 9y ago
      How does Mossad have the facilities and knowledge to produce Novichok? It's not something you can order from Amazon.
      - hugh4life 9y ago
        Vil Mirzayanov(who lives in the US) apparently wrote the forumula for Novichok in a book available on Amazon. https://twitter.com/mashant/status/973930996918865920 https://twitter.com/mashant/status/973930996918865920 "It's the Russians... unless it's anybody else who got the formula from my book (Kindle edition is only $8 on Amazon), Novichok whistle-blower Mirzayanov tells AFP" "The only other possibility, he said, would be that someone used the formulas in his book to make such a weapon." (I personally find it a bit difficult to believe they would actually put the formula for dangerous nerve agent in a book but that's what's reported)
        scottmf 9y ago
        >I personally find it a bit difficult to believe Quite the skeptic aren’t you.
        gnode 9y ago
        > I personally find it a bit difficult to believe they would actually put the formula for dangerous nerve agent in a book As the author explained, knowing what the chemical is doesn't help you much with making it, and such information was already available for Sarin and others. Producing these chemicals is a difficult engineering challenge, and incredibly dangerous. Even in the professional labs, people died trying to produce them.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
OrganicMSG 9y ago
Another Russian exile, Nikolai Glushkov, died this morning in London. It could just be a massive coincidence, however there do seem to be a lot of coincidences to write off if we are to assume that the trail of dead Russians does not lead to Russia.
- hugh4life 9y ago
  So they do another hit after another high profile hit? Why? I see far more motive to disrupt Russian elections and the Russian world cup than I see motive for taking out two Russian exiles who have been out of the country for over a decade.
  - ictoan 9y ago
    Why? Because Russia is an international bully/mob. They are going after people on their hit list because they don't have to fear the U.S. intervention. Clearly, Trump is not going to do a thing. So now is the time for assassinations in the U.K. The country and NATO are at a weak position because the U.S. probably won't help sanction and retaliate Russia.
  - OrganicMSG 9y ago
    Maybe because we gave them a midnight deadline, and this is the reply? To know exactly why they might be knocking off people would require a good inside knowledge of the current realpolitic, not just looking at elections and the world cup. These deaths are not the only recent ones that are being linked to Russia here, off the top of my head, there is also the January death in Guernsey of a Latvian who was assisting in Ukraine. In total, the home office has said that there are 14 recent murders on UK soil that it thinks are probably down to the Kremlin.
  - liberte82 9y ago
    Blitzkrieg
  - myth_drannon 9y ago
    This guy was in Russian jail, they had enough time to hang or poison him.
lowry 9y ago
Sending off diplomats won't hurt Putin as much as sending off McMafia style oligarchs. Unfortunately UK has no guts to do it.
- mc32 9y ago
  And what would be the legal basis for sending them off? If Putin did what is alleged, we kind of know he's capable of this being that he can tell the rest of the govt what to do and has in effect extrajudicial powers. The UK, it's expected, runs its government differently.
- nwah1 9y ago
  Someone's gotta keep those London real estate values high. It's a win-win for UK landowning elites and foreign money launderers alike.
  - donquichotte 9y ago
    [EDIT: changed my mind about posting this, sorry]
    - acct1771 9y ago
      That's because the street cops don't have firearms.
- liberte82 9y ago
  The diplomats are probably the more liberal-leaning people who actually want to maintain normal-style relations.
  - abhi3 9y ago
    The Foreign office claims to have expelled “undisclosed spies” and not regular diplomats.
    - liberte82 9y ago
gtrubetskoy 9y ago
There is a book by one of the people who worked on the "novichok" agents which describes in detail the story behind and the chemicals themselves, including the exact formulas and some synthesis details. https://www.amazon.com/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-Chemical/dp/1432725661 https://www.amazon.com/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-Chem...
- dharma1 9y ago
  It doesn't sound like something non-state actors could manufacture easily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OOLBN0j7c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OOLBN0j7c Makes me wonder what kind of people have devoted their lives to developing nerve toxins like this. Horrible.
aleyan 9y ago
Russian gangsters and other ne'er-do-wells of the 90s still carry old grievances and will continue murdering each other until they are all gone. Since Britain provided the richest of them with a playground, it is not shocking that they are continuing with their modus operandi on a smaller scale there. As for Skripal, he allegedly blew the cover of 300 Russian agents. That is a lot of people with a personal motive. Perhaps an investigation is in order before Britain and Russia tear their relationship apart over this.
- davidw 9y ago
  > That is a lot of people with a personal motive How many of them have access to nasty chemical weapons? Gangster types manage to settle scores all the time with guns, knives or whatever.
  - aleyan 9y ago
    Well, the 300 were Russian agents in 1990s. Many of them are probably still are and are better connected than they were back then. So probably a lot?
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    In Russia, all of them? Easier to conceal a few milligrams of poison than a gun or a knife. Putin and friends probably knew who and when but set them themselves at a comfortable distance.
- salmonfamine 9y ago
  An investigation is underway and has found the Russian government culpable. Maybe the Russian government should have thought twice before poisoning a British citizen on its own soil and tearing apart their relationship with Britain?
  - scottmf 9y ago
    Or hacking election systems and political campaigns and funding extremist and secessionist political parties in the US and EU. And all of their other aggressive actions in recent years. Russia is a rogue state.
apo 9y ago
British intelligence have labeled the poison as “military grade” and “of a type developed in Russia.” I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the alleged attack was carried out by Russia. Novichok agents were developed in the 1970s, have been the topic of many publications, and the simple and widely-known chemical structures of any number of them could be made by chemists from any country or group willing to take the risk to make them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent If Britain is intent on dragging NATO into this, as it seems like it might be, there had better be far more compelling evidence of Russia's involvement than the weak drivel published to date. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-attack-clearly-came-from-russia-says-us-rex-tillerson https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-... Remember yellowcake?
- WHoWHo 9y ago
  "I've seen no evidence whatsoever" I'm practically sure, you won't. It would be highly unlikely for the UK to give a sample to a HN reader.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  Russia has motive, means, and opportunity. It's not an insane conclusion to draw, and it's entirely possible the decision to blame them is based on non-public information like travel records, surveillance data, etc.
  - orbital-decay 9y ago
    I don't see GP whitewashing anyone. More transparency (regarding the currently non-public information in particular) would be certainly welcome, before doing something that involves more than those two countries.
  - apo 9y ago
    Russia has motive, means, and opportunity. So do many other groups. ... it's entirely possible the decision to blame them is based on non-public information like travel records, surveillance data, etc. Based on the information released to date, it's also possible that the decision is a naked attempt to manipulate the public. I'd like to think that people would have become more skeptical of their government's use of "intelligence." Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case.
fenk85 9y ago
This is what is going to happen Russia will blame everyone and use the usual whataboutism arguments, we already had Russian ambassador on CNN yesterday trying to float conspiracy theory that US done it because Russia destroyed all their chemical weapons and US has not (i kid you not) Sanctions will be announced by western countries, but not implemented (whatever dirt they have on Trump must be good) Everyone will forget and move on Few years later proof will be found, but by that stage no one will care, case in hand Russian antiaircraft technology "falling" into rebel hands and shooting down a passenger plane a few years ago.
- scottmf 9y ago
  Trump may be refusing to enact new sanctions (despite passing with bipartisan support) for some “unknown” reason, but the EU doesn’t need his support to implement any new sanctions.
WHoWHo 9y ago
Cancel all visas EU wide.
whb07 9y ago
Why is it that ex-Russian oligarchs/kgb/persona-non-grata who end up being killed are mostly in exile in the UK? While I know there is a big community, you're as far as possible while still being in Europe, why not just move to the US or the Caribbean or something? There are other suitable parts of the world to be exiled to and maybe the US would be a safer spot for you to enjoy your wealth while being relatively more 'safe'. Granted, if the FSB(really the KGB) want you killed it doesn't matter where but UK seems like an easier opponent to push away than the troubles that might rise from US gov.
- orf 9y ago
  The US is pretty close to Russia as well, don't forget. Some parts neighbor it. I'd posit that the UK is a lot safer (less guns, murder etc). I wouldn't rate the Caribbean equivalent of MI5 to protect you.
  - whb07 9y ago
    I don't think for a second that if you're in exile because you're on Putin's bad side that you're ever thinking "oh boy should I walk down this road? I know theres hoodlums always messing around it". You're always thinking "Oh snap, did that guy look Russian? When will Putin send for me here? Am I safe?" So in short, idk what 'less guns, murder' have to deal with the KGB. Btw, i don't think getting guns in the UK is an issue for KGB agents.
alva 9y ago
Two things that greatly concern me. 1. President Trumps response (and I am not a hardcore anti-Trumper) has been very weak. Many here are extremely disappointed. 2. The leader of the opposition is not supporting the government position and is propagating doubt far harder than is appropriate. There should always be some doubt in these situations but to immediately suggest this is a plot to frame Russia is something else. Rumours of mutiny are spreading and the majority of the Labour party directly and indirectly criticised his position during session. Highly concerning situation. I truly hope Trump comes out with much stronger language in support of what we consider a top ally.
- Yaggo 9y ago
  > 1. President Trumps response (and I am not a hardcore anti-Trumper) has been very weak. Many here are extremely disappointed. I don't see fundamental difference from U.S. government killing its citizens without trial in drone strikes. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-justification-drone-killing-american-citizen-awlaki https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-justificati...
- cmurf 9y ago
  He did today by congratulating Putin for his election victory. Thanking a dictator for sham elections is quite strong. But then Trump is always congratulating dictators while criticizing allies.
molszanski 9y ago
I just don't get it. a) Why would Russia do that? b) Why would they do that in a way that would finger point the blame on them?
- gnode 9y ago
  The most obvious reason I can think of to kill defectors with a signature poison (like nerve agents or Polonium-210) is to send a message to anyone thinking of defecting. I wonder if Russia has renewed interest in doing this, because of their recent antics, and politically dangerous knowledge their agents may now have.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Hmm. I wonder if there were some recent defections that we haven't heard about?
  - molszanski 9y ago
    Doesn't seem reasonable to do that after he gave up all the intel. Doesn't sound like a good reason to me.
jingleheimer 9y ago
On the face of it this looks like a USS Liberty style false flag. It would make sense if, once again, Israel is facing enemies on its doorstep and is looking draw others into the conflict to come to their defence. The novichok agents are not that hard to make and many labs around the world have the capability and the research licences to make it. The factors tying them to Russia would be trace chemicals, similar to how you can trace gold. It'll be easy to lie about the origin so long as no-one else has access to the chemicals to test them. Theresa May is a very weak position politically. The industrial size gang rape cover ups that came out recently didn't help. The ongoing Brexit negotiation failures are not helping. It's only a matter of time before she's replaced. Picking a fight with Russia makes her look stronger. If you want another laugh, consider that the UK thinks it has a 'special relationship' with the US which will allow them to get a favourable trading deal afterwards. Until I see more evidence, e.g. play by play surveillance, I will remain unconvinced.
Panjam 9y ago
This is going to get really insanely knotty, and the fall-out is only just beginning. There are very many, very influential Brits in the pay of Russian oligarchs/Putin cronies. Either directly, through consulting fees, or indirectly through business investments or house purchases. The reality is that Putin gambled that the British establishment's venality and greed would be its downfall - and watch - nothing will come of the fact that the British public have been exposed at home to state-sponsored aggression. I mean, for Pete's sake, a Russian oligarch was considered a fit and proper owner for a newspaper that went on to back Brexit. We'll start hearing in coming weeks who has taken Putin's pieces of silver. And it's going to get very uncomfortable.
Dowwie 9y ago
If you were a decision maker in Russia, why use a chemical so rare that anywhere in the world it appears would directly implicate you, and also kills a subject quickly? Revenge at a level like this-- killing a high ranking KGB informant under UK protection -- would be slow and painful. It would be done using methods that weren't branded Made In Russia into the hides of the victims. This entire story smells of conspiracy.
- gnode 9y ago
  So you can simultaneously deny it (as you can't politically take responsibility for it), and leave people in little doubt that it was actually you. The only motive I can see to kill an old ex-spy (who by now could have leaked any information) is to send a message to your current spies, that defecting will mean you and your family get killed.
- emmelaich 9y ago
  No point being the tough guy if no one knows you're the tough guy. Being implicated yet not having any definitive evidence against you is the point of the exercise.
- cmurf 9y ago
  Your response is worse than tinfoil hat territory: ignorance of the history of Russia, Soviet Union, FSB and KGB, and Cold War; and a preference for beliefs over the available facts, as a result of cognitive dissonance. RT the very same week said this is what happens to people who are traitors to Russia, count on it. Have you watched any of the recent interviews with Putin about this? He laughs when asked, and says he doesn't care while also saying the people involved weren't government people. This is a very clear message, yes we did it and so what? What are you going to do? Huh? What are you going to do? Exactly. Nothing. And that has in fact been UK policy for over a dozen suspected hits. https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil?utm_term=.rwmNEb0n1e#.qx4kKev6VP https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-1... Russia is risking the necessity of a disproportionate response, an unfair response, just like any playground bully. It's not enough to just punch them back. You have to wail on them, break the nose, make them bleed, and most importantly? Embarrass them. Only then do they stop.
amriksohata 9y ago
Russia could have killed this man years ago when he was in their custody, they instead used him for a spy swap and even then took years before deciding to kill him. There are one of two things going on, Russia is trying to be a nusiance in the same way by flying jets near Britain's airspace. It can't go to full scale war because both are nuclear powers, but wants to show people not to mess with it. The way MI5 works is completely different, something will happen in Russia and no one will know it's them that retaliated. I'm surprised people haven't capitalised on grilling Corbyn on if he thinks nuclear disarmament is still a good idea.

67 points by LuisOrtiz 9y ago

I'll be frank, this whole situation seems really fishy... I don't think Russia had anything to do with this. Not with the elections and world cup within months. It makes zero sense whatsoever. But I also don't feel sorry for them because their past shady and thuggish behavior makes it easy for them to be framed for such acts.

fenk85 9y ago
You know what makes zero sense? shooting passenger airplanes out of the sky, but here we are...
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  Just adding explanation to the cryptic comment: Downing of Iran Air Flight 655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
  - fenk85 9y ago
    Erm no more like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
  - proaralyst 9y ago
    I think the parent may have been referring to the Malaysian Airlines passenger jet shot down over Ukraine with a Russian anti-air missile system.
ictoan 9y ago
What is it that makes this fishy to you? Why do you think Russia is not responsible? Who else would've done this? Did someone just magically have a rare nerve agent made in Russia, brought it to UK and sprayed it on an ex-Russian spy? Gosh, what a freak accident! Or if someone did it on purpose then what is his intention? Why would someone go out of his way to frame Russia? What is the goal? Purpose? Or maybe... just maybe... it is just Russia being Russia and doing shady Soviet style operations.
- hugh4life 9y ago
  Mossad could easily be as responsible and they have motive with Syria.
  - ictoan 9y ago
    How does Mossad have the facilities and knowledge to produce Novichok? It's not something you can order from Amazon.
    - hugh4life 9y ago
      Vil Mirzayanov(who lives in the US) apparently wrote the forumula for Novichok in a book available on Amazon. https://twitter.com/mashant/status/973930996918865920 https://twitter.com/mashant/status/973930996918865920 "It's the Russians... unless it's anybody else who got the formula from my book (Kindle edition is only $8 on Amazon), Novichok whistle-blower Mirzayanov tells AFP" "The only other possibility, he said, would be that someone used the formulas in his book to make such a weapon." (I personally find it a bit difficult to believe they would actually put the formula for dangerous nerve agent in a book but that's what's reported)
      - scottmf 9y ago
        >I personally find it a bit difficult to believe Quite the skeptic aren’t you.
      - gnode 9y ago
        > I personally find it a bit difficult to believe they would actually put the formula for dangerous nerve agent in a book As the author explained, knowing what the chemical is doesn't help you much with making it, and such information was already available for Sarin and others. Producing these chemicals is a difficult engineering challenge, and incredibly dangerous. Even in the professional labs, people died trying to produce them.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]

OrganicMSG 9y ago

Another Russian exile, Nikolai Glushkov, died this morning in London. It could just be a massive coincidence, however there do seem to be a lot of coincidences to write off if we are to assume that the trail of dead Russians does not lead to Russia.

hugh4life 9y ago
So they do another hit after another high profile hit? Why? I see far more motive to disrupt Russian elections and the Russian world cup than I see motive for taking out two Russian exiles who have been out of the country for over a decade.
- ictoan 9y ago
  Why? Because Russia is an international bully/mob. They are going after people on their hit list because they don't have to fear the U.S. intervention. Clearly, Trump is not going to do a thing. So now is the time for assassinations in the U.K. The country and NATO are at a weak position because the U.S. probably won't help sanction and retaliate Russia.
- OrganicMSG 9y ago
  Maybe because we gave them a midnight deadline, and this is the reply? To know exactly why they might be knocking off people would require a good inside knowledge of the current realpolitic, not just looking at elections and the world cup. These deaths are not the only recent ones that are being linked to Russia here, off the top of my head, there is also the January death in Guernsey of a Latvian who was assisting in Ukraine. In total, the home office has said that there are 14 recent murders on UK soil that it thinks are probably down to the Kremlin.
- liberte82 9y ago
  Blitzkrieg
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  This guy was in Russian jail, they had enough time to hang or poison him.

lowry 9y ago

Sending off diplomats won't hurt Putin as much as sending off McMafia style oligarchs. Unfortunately UK has no guts to do it.

mc32 9y ago
And what would be the legal basis for sending them off? If Putin did what is alleged, we kind of know he's capable of this being that he can tell the rest of the govt what to do and has in effect extrajudicial powers. The UK, it's expected, runs its government differently.
nwah1 9y ago
Someone's gotta keep those London real estate values high. It's a win-win for UK landowning elites and foreign money launderers alike.
- donquichotte 9y ago
  [EDIT: changed my mind about posting this, sorry]
  - acct1771 9y ago
    That's because the street cops don't have firearms.
liberte82 9y ago
The diplomats are probably the more liberal-leaning people who actually want to maintain normal-style relations.
- abhi3 9y ago
  The Foreign office claims to have expelled “undisclosed spies” and not regular diplomats.
  - liberte82 9y ago

gtrubetskoy 9y ago

There is a book by one of the people who worked on the "novichok" agents which describes in detail the story behind and the chemicals themselves, including the exact formulas and some synthesis details. https://www.amazon.com/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-Chemical/dp/1432725661 https://www.amazon.com/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-Chem...

dharma1 9y ago
It doesn't sound like something non-state actors could manufacture easily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OOLBN0j7c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OOLBN0j7c Makes me wonder what kind of people have devoted their lives to developing nerve toxins like this. Horrible.

aleyan 9y ago

Russian gangsters and other ne'er-do-wells of the 90s still carry old grievances and will continue murdering each other until they are all gone. Since Britain provided the richest of them with a playground, it is not shocking that they are continuing with their modus operandi on a smaller scale there. As for Skripal, he allegedly blew the cover of 300 Russian agents. That is a lot of people with a personal motive. Perhaps an investigation is in order before Britain and Russia tear their relationship apart over this.

davidw 9y ago
> That is a lot of people with a personal motive How many of them have access to nasty chemical weapons? Gangster types manage to settle scores all the time with guns, knives or whatever.
- aleyan 9y ago
  Well, the 300 were Russian agents in 1990s. Many of them are probably still are and are better connected than they were back then. So probably a lot?
- emmelaich 9y ago
  In Russia, all of them? Easier to conceal a few milligrams of poison than a gun or a knife. Putin and friends probably knew who and when but set them themselves at a comfortable distance.
salmonfamine 9y ago
An investigation is underway and has found the Russian government culpable. Maybe the Russian government should have thought twice before poisoning a British citizen on its own soil and tearing apart their relationship with Britain?
- scottmf 9y ago
  Or hacking election systems and political campaigns and funding extremist and secessionist political parties in the US and EU. And all of their other aggressive actions in recent years. Russia is a rogue state.

apo 9y ago

British intelligence have labeled the poison as “military grade” and “of a type developed in Russia.” I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the alleged attack was carried out by Russia. Novichok agents were developed in the 1970s, have been the topic of many publications, and the simple and widely-known chemical structures of any number of them could be made by chemists from any country or group willing to take the risk to make them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent If Britain is intent on dragging NATO into this, as it seems like it might be, there had better be far more compelling evidence of Russia's involvement than the weak drivel published to date. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-attack-clearly-came-from-russia-says-us-rex-tillerson https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-... Remember yellowcake?

WHoWHo 9y ago
"I've seen no evidence whatsoever" I'm practically sure, you won't. It would be highly unlikely for the UK to give a sample to a HN reader.
ceejayoz 9y ago
Russia has motive, means, and opportunity. It's not an insane conclusion to draw, and it's entirely possible the decision to blame them is based on non-public information like travel records, surveillance data, etc.
- orbital-decay 9y ago
  I don't see GP whitewashing anyone. More transparency (regarding the currently non-public information in particular) would be certainly welcome, before doing something that involves more than those two countries.
- apo 9y ago
  Russia has motive, means, and opportunity. So do many other groups. ... it's entirely possible the decision to blame them is based on non-public information like travel records, surveillance data, etc. Based on the information released to date, it's also possible that the decision is a naked attempt to manipulate the public. I'd like to think that people would have become more skeptical of their government's use of "intelligence." Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case.

fenk85 9y ago

This is what is going to happen Russia will blame everyone and use the usual whataboutism arguments, we already had Russian ambassador on CNN yesterday trying to float conspiracy theory that US done it because Russia destroyed all their chemical weapons and US has not (i kid you not) Sanctions will be announced by western countries, but not implemented (whatever dirt they have on Trump must be good) Everyone will forget and move on Few years later proof will be found, but by that stage no one will care, case in hand Russian antiaircraft technology "falling" into rebel hands and shooting down a passenger plane a few years ago.

scottmf 9y ago
Trump may be refusing to enact new sanctions (despite passing with bipartisan support) for some “unknown” reason, but the EU doesn’t need his support to implement any new sanctions.

WHoWHo 9y ago

Cancel all visas EU wide.

whb07 9y ago

Why is it that ex-Russian oligarchs/kgb/persona-non-grata who end up being killed are mostly in exile in the UK? While I know there is a big community, you're as far as possible while still being in Europe, why not just move to the US or the Caribbean or something? There are other suitable parts of the world to be exiled to and maybe the US would be a safer spot for you to enjoy your wealth while being relatively more 'safe'. Granted, if the FSB(really the KGB) want you killed it doesn't matter where but UK seems like an easier opponent to push away than the troubles that might rise from US gov.

orf 9y ago
The US is pretty close to Russia as well, don't forget. Some parts neighbor it. I'd posit that the UK is a lot safer (less guns, murder etc). I wouldn't rate the Caribbean equivalent of MI5 to protect you.
- whb07 9y ago
  I don't think for a second that if you're in exile because you're on Putin's bad side that you're ever thinking "oh boy should I walk down this road? I know theres hoodlums always messing around it". You're always thinking "Oh snap, did that guy look Russian? When will Putin send for me here? Am I safe?" So in short, idk what 'less guns, murder' have to deal with the KGB. Btw, i don't think getting guns in the UK is an issue for KGB agents.

alva 9y ago

Two things that greatly concern me. 1. President Trumps response (and I am not a hardcore anti-Trumper) has been very weak. Many here are extremely disappointed. 2. The leader of the opposition is not supporting the government position and is propagating doubt far harder than is appropriate. There should always be some doubt in these situations but to immediately suggest this is a plot to frame Russia is something else. Rumours of mutiny are spreading and the majority of the Labour party directly and indirectly criticised his position during session. Highly concerning situation. I truly hope Trump comes out with much stronger language in support of what we consider a top ally.

Yaggo 9y ago
> 1. President Trumps response (and I am not a hardcore anti-Trumper) has been very weak. Many here are extremely disappointed. I don't see fundamental difference from U.S. government killing its citizens without trial in drone strikes. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-justification-drone-killing-american-citizen-awlaki https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-justificati...
cmurf 9y ago
He did today by congratulating Putin for his election victory. Thanking a dictator for sham elections is quite strong. But then Trump is always congratulating dictators while criticizing allies.

molszanski 9y ago

I just don't get it. a) Why would Russia do that? b) Why would they do that in a way that would finger point the blame on them?

gnode 9y ago
The most obvious reason I can think of to kill defectors with a signature poison (like nerve agents or Polonium-210) is to send a message to anyone thinking of defecting. I wonder if Russia has renewed interest in doing this, because of their recent antics, and politically dangerous knowledge their agents may now have.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Hmm. I wonder if there were some recent defections that we haven't heard about?
- molszanski 9y ago
  Doesn't seem reasonable to do that after he gave up all the intel. Doesn't sound like a good reason to me.

jingleheimer 9y ago

On the face of it this looks like a USS Liberty style false flag. It would make sense if, once again, Israel is facing enemies on its doorstep and is looking draw others into the conflict to come to their defence. The novichok agents are not that hard to make and many labs around the world have the capability and the research licences to make it. The factors tying them to Russia would be trace chemicals, similar to how you can trace gold. It'll be easy to lie about the origin so long as no-one else has access to the chemicals to test them. Theresa May is a very weak position politically. The industrial size gang rape cover ups that came out recently didn't help. The ongoing Brexit negotiation failures are not helping. It's only a matter of time before she's replaced. Picking a fight with Russia makes her look stronger. If you want another laugh, consider that the UK thinks it has a 'special relationship' with the US which will allow them to get a favourable trading deal afterwards. Until I see more evidence, e.g. play by play surveillance, I will remain unconvinced.

Panjam 9y ago

This is going to get really insanely knotty, and the fall-out is only just beginning. There are very many, very influential Brits in the pay of Russian oligarchs/Putin cronies. Either directly, through consulting fees, or indirectly through business investments or house purchases. The reality is that Putin gambled that the British establishment's venality and greed would be its downfall - and watch - nothing will come of the fact that the British public have been exposed at home to state-sponsored aggression. I mean, for Pete's sake, a Russian oligarch was considered a fit and proper owner for a newspaper that went on to back Brexit. We'll start hearing in coming weeks who has taken Putin's pieces of silver. And it's going to get very uncomfortable.

Dowwie 9y ago

If you were a decision maker in Russia, why use a chemical so rare that anywhere in the world it appears would directly implicate you, and also kills a subject quickly? Revenge at a level like this-- killing a high ranking KGB informant under UK protection -- would be slow and painful. It would be done using methods that weren't branded Made In Russia into the hides of the victims. This entire story smells of conspiracy.

gnode 9y ago
So you can simultaneously deny it (as you can't politically take responsibility for it), and leave people in little doubt that it was actually you. The only motive I can see to kill an old ex-spy (who by now could have leaked any information) is to send a message to your current spies, that defecting will mean you and your family get killed.
emmelaich 9y ago
No point being the tough guy if no one knows you're the tough guy. Being implicated yet not having any definitive evidence against you is the point of the exercise.
cmurf 9y ago
Your response is worse than tinfoil hat territory: ignorance of the history of Russia, Soviet Union, FSB and KGB, and Cold War; and a preference for beliefs over the available facts, as a result of cognitive dissonance. RT the very same week said this is what happens to people who are traitors to Russia, count on it. Have you watched any of the recent interviews with Putin about this? He laughs when asked, and says he doesn't care while also saying the people involved weren't government people. This is a very clear message, yes we did it and so what? What are you going to do? Huh? What are you going to do? Exactly. Nothing. And that has in fact been UK policy for over a dozen suspected hits. https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-14-suspected-hits-on-british-soil?utm_term=.rwmNEb0n1e#.qx4kKev6VP https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-1... Russia is risking the necessity of a disproportionate response, an unfair response, just like any playground bully. It's not enough to just punch them back. You have to wail on them, break the nose, make them bleed, and most importantly? Embarrass them. Only then do they stop.

amriksohata 9y ago

Russia could have killed this man years ago when he was in their custody, they instead used him for a spy swap and even then took years before deciding to kill him. There are one of two things going on, Russia is trying to be a nusiance in the same way by flying jets near Britain's airspace. It can't go to full scale war because both are nuclear powers, but wants to show people not to mess with it. The way MI5 works is completely different, something will happen in Russia and no one will know it's them that retaliated. I'm surprised people haven't capitalised on grilling Corbyn on if he thinks nuclear disarmament is still a good idea.