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For starters, it's a poor choice for streaming technology on the Mac. Can we expect to see HTML5 video support for the Mac anytime soon? It pains me that Netfl

by dhess 16y ago

For starters, it's a poor choice for streaming technology on the Mac. Can we expect to see HTML5 video support for the Mac anytime soon? It pains me that Netflix HD streams on my iPad look better than on my 1080p projector hooked up to a Mac mini.

Terretta 16y ago
Of course video using only 1024x768 tiny pixels on a bright glossy screen will look better than using 1920 x 1080 pixels from a projector. You simply won't see as many problems with video compression on the small screen with less pixels. Also, just to clarify -- there's not really any such thing as HTML5 video. There's an HTML5 video tag, and browser vendors can decide what kinds of video the tag should handle in their browser on a given OS. How the video looks on your iPad or projector depends on the compression/decompression algorithm ("codec") and how efficiently the playback software and hardware can decompress and render frames of video to your screen. Silverlight and Flash both support the H.264 codec, meaning a given frame of video in either technology should look the same. In desktop Safari, the HTML5 video tag ties into any media the installed version of QuickTime can play, including video compressed with H.264. The HTML5 video tag on iPad and iPhone 3G and later supports H.264 Baseline profile 3.1, while earlier versions of iPhone support H.264 Baseline profile 3.0. Given that Silverlight, Flash, and QuickTime all play back an H.264 encoded video, the exact same file, differences stem from other things besides the video, like excessive CPU usage causing frame drops. For example, Flash 10.0 didn't access hardware acceleration for decompression of H.264, so 720p or higher content would generally drop frames and stutter badly. Flash 10.1 can, with certain video cards, use the video card to decompress the video, letting the video play more smoothly. Safari 5 and QuickTime also can access hardware acceleration. Meanwhile, Silverlight 3 was much more efficient at decompressing and rendering 720p size video on a Mac than Flash 10.0, while also supporting DRM encryption/decryption, making the Silverlight player a natural choice for Netflix. (As of Flash 10.1, on compatible Macs, the situation has somewhat reversed.) On the back end, Silverlight streaming servers and Apple adaptive HTTP servers are close enough that an IIS Media Services server can stream to iPhones/iPads. H.264 video encoded for Silverlight Smooth Streaming or for Apple adaptive HTTP streaming uses generally similar techniques, helping an investment in Silverlight pay off in reaching the Apple iDevice ecosystem.
- dhess 16y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to explain Netflix's justification for choosing Silverlight. As a customer, I would still prefer a solution that doesn't require installing a plugin. Let me rephrase my original question: is there any chance we'll see a native or browser-based application for the Mac that doesn't require Flash or Silverlight, ala the iPad app? Presumably whatever sort of DRM the iPad app is using could be implemented on the Mac, as well. By the way, you could have skipped the patronizing bits in your response about HTML5 tags and the definition of the word "codec." The term "HTML5 video" is used colloquially to refer to native browser support for H.264 or WebM video. I thought that was clear enough, but perhaps I should have been more precise.
  - Terretta 16y ago
    The sort of DRM the iPad is using is what the Silverlight player offers on the Mac desktop: http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/netflix-selects-new-microsoft-drm-19505 http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/netflix-selects-new...
    - dhess 16y ago
      Ahh, that's an informative link. Thanks for posting that. You didn't really answer my question about a native Mac app, but that may be because you can't talk about anything that may or may not be in development, which is understandable. In any case, just to re-iterate, my customer feedback is that I'd be much happier with Netflix streaming on my Mac if there were a native Mac app that incorporated the iPad implementation of PlayReady, without the need for installing Silverlight. On the bright side, I'm definitely happier with Mac streaming since learning from elq that Netflix supports "HD" streams on the Mac since May. I guess I should have subscribed to the official Netflix blog, as I'd have heard about it before yesterday. p.s. Also in that article is this gem: In addition, Netflix founder and CEO Reed Hastings sits on the Microsoft board. I guess we've hashed this to death already, and you've made good points about the technical merits of Silverlight (version 3, at least, which was not available to the public when Mac streaming was originally released), but given the relationship between Netflix's CEO and Microsoft, you can probably understand why people would be skeptical that the choice to use Silverlight was an engineering-driven decision, which was staunch's point in his original post, I think. At any rate, I think you and elq have made a good argument that as of v3, it's probably a better technical solution than Flash, at least.

by dhess 16y ago

Terretta 16y ago

Of course video using only 1024x768 tiny pixels on a bright glossy screen will look better than using 1920 x 1080 pixels from a projector. You simply won't see as many problems with video compression on the small screen with less pixels. Also, just to clarify -- there's not really any such thing as HTML5 video. There's an HTML5 video tag, and browser vendors can decide what kinds of video the tag should handle in their browser on a given OS. How the video looks on your iPad or projector depends on the compression/decompression algorithm ("codec") and how efficiently the playback software and hardware can decompress and render frames of video to your screen. Silverlight and Flash both support the H.264 codec, meaning a given frame of video in either technology should look the same. In desktop Safari, the HTML5 video tag ties into any media the installed version of QuickTime can play, including video compressed with H.264. The HTML5 video tag on iPad and iPhone 3G and later supports H.264 Baseline profile 3.1, while earlier versions of iPhone support H.264 Baseline profile 3.0. Given that Silverlight, Flash, and QuickTime all play back an H.264 encoded video, the exact same file, differences stem from other things besides the video, like excessive CPU usage causing frame drops. For example, Flash 10.0 didn't access hardware acceleration for decompression of H.264, so 720p or higher content would generally drop frames and stutter badly. Flash 10.1 can, with certain video cards, use the video card to decompress the video, letting the video play more smoothly. Safari 5 and QuickTime also can access hardware acceleration. Meanwhile, Silverlight 3 was much more efficient at decompressing and rendering 720p size video on a Mac than Flash 10.0, while also supporting DRM encryption/decryption, making the Silverlight player a natural choice for Netflix. (As of Flash 10.1, on compatible Macs, the situation has somewhat reversed.) On the back end, Silverlight streaming servers and Apple adaptive HTTP servers are close enough that an IIS Media Services server can stream to iPhones/iPads. H.264 video encoded for Silverlight Smooth Streaming or for Apple adaptive HTTP streaming uses generally similar techniques, helping an investment in Silverlight pay off in reaching the Apple iDevice ecosystem.

dhess 16y ago
Thanks for taking the time to explain Netflix's justification for choosing Silverlight. As a customer, I would still prefer a solution that doesn't require installing a plugin. Let me rephrase my original question: is there any chance we'll see a native or browser-based application for the Mac that doesn't require Flash or Silverlight, ala the iPad app? Presumably whatever sort of DRM the iPad app is using could be implemented on the Mac, as well. By the way, you could have skipped the patronizing bits in your response about HTML5 tags and the definition of the word "codec." The term "HTML5 video" is used colloquially to refer to native browser support for H.264 or WebM video. I thought that was clear enough, but perhaps I should have been more precise.
- Terretta 16y ago
  The sort of DRM the iPad is using is what the Silverlight player offers on the Mac desktop: http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/netflix-selects-new-microsoft-drm-19505 http://www.homemediamagazine.com/netflix/netflix-selects-new...
  - dhess 16y ago
    Ahh, that's an informative link. Thanks for posting that. You didn't really answer my question about a native Mac app, but that may be because you can't talk about anything that may or may not be in development, which is understandable. In any case, just to re-iterate, my customer feedback is that I'd be much happier with Netflix streaming on my Mac if there were a native Mac app that incorporated the iPad implementation of PlayReady, without the need for installing Silverlight. On the bright side, I'm definitely happier with Mac streaming since learning from elq that Netflix supports "HD" streams on the Mac since May. I guess I should have subscribed to the official Netflix blog, as I'd have heard about it before yesterday. p.s. Also in that article is this gem: In addition, Netflix founder and CEO Reed Hastings sits on the Microsoft board. I guess we've hashed this to death already, and you've made good points about the technical merits of Silverlight (version 3, at least, which was not available to the public when Mac streaming was originally released), but given the relationship between Netflix's CEO and Microsoft, you can probably understand why people would be skeptical that the choice to use Silverlight was an engineering-driven decision, which was staunch's point in his original post, I think. At any rate, I think you and elq have made a good argument that as of v3, it's probably a better technical solution than Flash, at least.